Reverend Ben Cooper's Podcast
Reverend Ben Coopers podcast, offers an inviting space for listeners to explore Christianity and spiritual growth with wisdom, humor, and a deep commitment to biblical truth. Through Rev. Ben's engaging conversations with guests, the podcast not only explores the timeless wisdom of the Bible but also tackles the pressing issues of life, faith, and hope in a way that is accessible, thought-provoking, and enriching. Whether you’re seeking spiritual nourishment, answers to life’s big questions, or simply a place to reflect on your faith, the Rev Ben podcast is a valuable resource on your journey.
In each episode, Rev. Ben guides listeners through profound theological reflections, personal stories, and practical insights drawn from the Bible and the broader Christian tradition.
Reverend Ben Cooper's Podcast
Journey Through Jewish Symbols and Faith (#902 Elim)
Join us for an enlightening episode as we explore the profound world of spiritual symbols and traditions with our distinguished guest, Brian Greenaway. With more than a decade of experience in ministry, including his work with Maoz, Brian enriches our conversation with his extensive knowledge of the cultural and spiritual significance of the prayer shawl, or tallit. Uncover the symbolic elements of this revered garment, from the historical black bands to the meaningful tzitzit tassels, as we examine how such symbols elevate both personal devotion and collective faith.
We promise you'll gain a deeper understanding of how religious attire, like the Messianic prayer shawl, serves as an expression of faith and devotion. Our discussion draws from the scriptures of Numbers and Deuteronomy, shedding light on the biblical roots of the tzitzit and their crucial role as reminders of divine commandments. We also broaden the conversation to include the significance of the shofar and menorah, exploring their roles in both historical and contemporary spiritual practices. By reflecting on these enduring symbols, we aim to connect you with the vibrant tapestry of faith and history that shapes religious identity.
This episode also ventures into the realms of light and tradition, considering their powerful roles in religious observance. As we discuss the menorah and the importance of light in Jewish practices, we highlight how these elements symbolize both enlightenment and spiritual insight. Discover the rich traditions of Shabbat, the emotional resonance of the Western Wall, and the fascinating history revealed through Temple Mount excavations. Whether it's through the sound of the shofar or the glow of the menorah, join us in exploring how these symbols transcend their material forms to embody faith, history, and a shared spirituality.
"Explore the profound meaning behind #ChristianPodcasts that dive deep into #BiblicalSymbols and the rich heritage of #MessianicFaith. In this episode, we uncover the significance of the #TallitMeaning and #PrayerShawl, essential symbols of Jewish-Christian connection, as well as the spiritual role of #Tzitzit in deepening faith and devotion. Learn about timeless #SpiritualTraditions like the sound of the #Shofar and the illumination of the #Menorah, which bring light and meaning to worship and daily life. With a focus on #JewishChristianConnection, we explore how these #FaithAndHistory elements reveal the deeper layers of #ScripturalSymbols and their roots in #DeuteronomyFaith. Gain valuable #SpiritualInsight into how practices like #ShabbatTraditions and the symbolism of #TempleMount shape our modern Christian faith and spiritual journeys. This conversation delves into the #DivineCommandments that connect us to centuries of faith history and deepen our understanding of God’s purpose in our lives."
#ChristianPodcasts, #BiblicalSymbols, #MessianicFaith, #TallitMeaning, #PrayerShawl, #Tzitzit, #SpiritualTraditions, #Shofar, #Menorah, #JewishChristianConnection, #FaithAndHistory, #ScripturalSymbols, #DeuteronomyFaith, #SpiritualInsight, #ShabbatTraditions, #TempleMount, #DivineCommandments.
https://www.pastorbencooper.co.uk/
it's us, we're back. It's Helium Church. We're online, we're on Buzzsprout, we're on Spotify, we're on YouTube, we're on Instagram, facebook. We're all over the place, and sometimes my head's all over the place with all the stuff that's going on, but you can find us in the world of podcasting. Continue to listen. We thank you so much for sharing everything that we do here. Have a beautiful day, you lovely people. Wherever you are today, keep safe, keep keep pressing, but keep listening. Bye-bye, good afternoon, and thank you for joining us here in elim church in swanley. You're joining myself, reverend benjamin leonard cooper, with a really good friend of ours, brian greenaway, that's joining us just for one hour. Today. We're going to do a quick podcast and we have got some practical things in our little podcasting studio this afternoon. We have a few things that we're going to talk about, and Brian is involved in a great ministry, and the ministry is called Maoz. Have I said that right?
Speaker 2:today. That's right, yep, I'm getting good, I'm getting good.
Speaker 1:Only after six or seven years, brian. We thank Brian for sharing and coming along with us. You know, with these podcasts learning about Israel and the ministry that he's involved in and everything that goes on in the world of that ministry that he works in and he heads up. That's correct, isn't it Brian?
Speaker 2:You head up here in the UK. Yeah, sure, that's right UK.
Speaker 1:And you're a Baptist AOG. That's right AOG that's right.
Speaker 2:What am?
Speaker 1:I talking about it's because I've come from the college this morning and I've got so many things on my mind. An AOG minister, that's right. How long have you been a minister for, brian? Oh, good grief, it's over 10 years now.
Speaker 2:I can't remember how long Easy. It's. A bit more than that Must be.
Speaker 1:Must be Brian.
Speaker 2:Time to fly.
Speaker 1:And we just want to say thank you to Brian and the ministry. We support that through prayer and other other means, but it's a great ministry and people can find you online, can't they? They can, yep, they can. So easy to find you. Lots and lots of literature. But right here we go. What we're going to start with. We have this beautiful um table here spread out with I don't know what to what to choose.
Speaker 1:First, let's talk about the prayer shawl. Okay, because you bought this prayer shawl for myself. Yeah, um, went to Israel last, I believe, and it has fascinated me and they have fascinated me for years. They're really, really interesting. So, brian, tell us what you know about this prayer shawl, the correct name, what it's used for, where it comes from. And you mentioned about the colors earlier, the difference of the color bandings, and I don't know, um, how many people might have these that are listening and just got them when they've gone to israel, but it's a fantastic garment. So, brian, tell us about, oh, just very interestingly, on the corners, yep, it's got that. It's got some scripture, hasn't it?
Speaker 1:so, on every garment every garment is that an individual? I know they're mass produced to a certain degree, but has your one got it has yeah.
Speaker 2:Mine has got as well on what they call the crown or the atara at the top there, and not all have scripture. So there's not a definite pattern. That's the thing about the partial. There's not like a definite direction. They're different. Some are black and white, white, some have gold in them, some are all white, some are blue and white. So there's different colors and not one of those is right. But having blue in there is quite important because, okay, originally they used to use this, um, this, uh, you know, from the original directions, from the bible, they used to use a color snail that had a blue dye in it, but that's become extinct.
Speaker 1:When you say snout, you are referring to our little friends on the floor.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, it's a sea snout. It's a sea snout and the dye in the snout was used to dye what they call the tzitzit, which is the hem of the garment, the tassels some people would identify them as, and I'm trying to imagine it and people are obviously listening. So the blue does appear in many of the prayer shawls. So mine, as Ben can see, hasn't got any blue in it. Mine has got black.
Speaker 2:Now the reason some have black in them is as a commemoration of the temple, the temple that was destroyed, that is no longer extant. So mine has got black in it as a commemoration of that. So yeah, you can see the variation and all different and you know, with different sort of jewish people across the world whether they're shafardic from the middle east, or whether ashkenazi from europe. Yeah, we'll have different sorts of prayer shawls, and the most important thing about the pressure is that it focuses on prayer, that's what it's about.
Speaker 2:That is the main focus it doesn't have magical properties it doesn't make us better at praying, but it's an aid to prayer it's an aid to prayer it's a very interesting garment.
Speaker 1:You can get different sizes and this is a lovely one that you got got us here. Um, when you went to israel got a lovely bit of inscription on it, and is there any significance to the, to the gold bands that run through, or is that just the way it is? There's no biblical scripture.
Speaker 2:You know I'm gonna ask some questions you might say no it's just just the way it is, that, yeah, so mine has gold and so does yours, but, as I say, it doesn't have to, and you know, there's lots of traditions in judaism, lots of traditions that people have picked up over the time and some of them don't know where they start. Now it could be the gold, and you know some have said that the gold is relating to the temple because, of course, in the temple you had the menorah and you had everything made of gold and bronze. So it could be pointing to the temple, the gold that represents the service of the temple and all the different implements there that were made of gold.
Speaker 1:So so that could be one thing pointing towards that I've actually got the menorah in the corner, just oh yeah, so you have yours just in this one here. Um, and I will. I would say that looks like the star of david as well, where the hole is through there. And then we've got. Would you say that's a fish? It's very difficult to see.
Speaker 2:So you have what someone might say is a Messianic prayer shawl. So, those who are believers in Yeshua or believers in Jesus, would have one that would reflect that. And that's what you've got in yours, which is great, you know, because there are a lot of people now, jewish people who love Jesus, follow Jesus. They people now who jewish people, who who love jesus and follow jesus, they're still jewish people, messianic jews, and they may want a prayer shawl that reflects that faith right and recognizing the messiah yeah, so these are thousands of years old.
Speaker 1:They've got some a lot, a lot of years behind them. Yeah, the tradition, just nature, yeah, um, as soon as I think of israel and look online or somewhere, you, you would see a lot of people walking around with these. You would do, yeah. It's like don't get me wrong, all the listeners that are listening, and I don't want to say this incorrectly but it's not a gift, it's not a you don't go to Israel. And it's not like a don't get me wrong here like buying a stick of rock.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean. I've got to be really careful. A souvenir yeah, it's not a souvenir product.
Speaker 1:It has biblical reference.
Speaker 2:It does, yeah, it does, yeah, and as you so rightly said, Brian.
Speaker 1:It's not because it has magical properties, it's just the process it represents prayer.
Speaker 1:That's right, yeah, and it makes you think so. When you look at the tassels and you look at the colours, as you were saying, it really makes you think so, run us by all these beautiful, these knots. So we've got the knots and we've got the tassels. So I'll just quickly say, before Brian goes any further, if anyone wants to know what we're looking at, we're looking at the prayer shawl, and if you would quickly do a quick Google and they come up instantly, they're they're a fantastic garment and I would recommend anyone to have a good study, because what fascinates me is that the history behind it and the world that goes into it. So just have a quick google. The prayer shawl, um, and brian's going to give us a, a guide to what these tassels are that are hanging off of the towel of them.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, so. So the most important thing you know is to go to the bible, of course. Yeah, and we have a look at um numbers 1538, yeah, deuteronomy 22, 12 they are your two scripture references, because we have to go to the bible and you'll find that the, the real origin of why of the prayer shawl is the actual zeet seat, okay, the fringes.
Speaker 2:I'll pronounce that right yeah, zeet, see, yeah, it's like saying t-z-i-t twice, zeet, zeet. And it relates to the fringes, yeah, the garment. So back there in the scripture, what it said was to remind the people of israel about god's commandments and the need to be devoted to him is to on the fringes of their garments. Those clothes are very different from today, of course they were. So on their garment they should wear. Attach so in these tzitzit, okay, these fringes. That's what should happen, and it was to remind them of the commandments 613 commandments in the law and also to remind them to be devoted to God. So that was the idea. Now, of course, as clothes have changed, as we know, we don't wear the same clothes today. The clothes are very different.
Speaker 2:So the prayer shawl was developed to attach the tzitzi to. That was the idea. So the importance is the tassels, the tzitzi. That's the important element of it. So the prayer shawl has been developed over hundreds of years, hundreds and hundreds of years, as a place to hang those tzitzit on, which is why you see the prayer shawl today. So that's the important element of it. It's not so much the shawl itself, it is those tzitzit which remind them of the commandments, the 613 commandments.
Speaker 1:As I said, just looking at it, it's a lot of work gone into this. Yeah, yeah, 613. And 13 commandments in the law. So are we saying that as they hold these, they've got some?
Speaker 1:Yeah, no power in it whatsoever but it's just a reminder and all around the fringe on this, on the edge, and on the edge of yours as well. It's very interesting how they finished it off. It's like a quick way to describe it's like I would. A quick way to describe it for me as a lay person in this is it? It looks almost frayed to a certain degree, but then it's tied into into knots, perfectly done, at perfect lengths yeah and this is obviously. It has to be handmade, surely?
Speaker 2:some of them are yes, some of them. You can have some really lovely ones. I mean, what you shouldn't do is say if you pay, more is better. That's not true. Is it because prayer is not like?
Speaker 2:that because god is not thinking oh you're, you're not more acceptable. God, because you've got a more flashy one or a colorful one doesn't mean that god. He doesn't look at the outward appearance, as we know. He looks at the heart, so um. So having a different one doesn't mean you're better than anyone else. But the interesting thing about the tassels you were talking about is is the word tzitzi. Now, every hebrew letter has a numerical value. Okay. So tzitzi, the five hebrew letters add up to number 600.
Speaker 1:Okay, that's up to 600. Yeah, I'm gonna follow this adds up to 600.
Speaker 2:Okay, we calculate this out, yeah, and then you have the strings. Okay, now it looks like there are. There are actually four strings that are, yeah, sort of doubled over, okay, which give eight strings. Okay, so there's eight strings hanging down from each zz. You've got eight strings.
Speaker 1:If you look at yours now you've got the zz's on the corners.
Speaker 2:That's right. And they've got eight strings and they've got eight. People are looking at theirs at home, they can see, and five knots and five knots. If you count it down, there should be five knots, so that is so that's why whenever a jewish person will come to to pray with that, they will look at those first. I look at the four tassels make sure all eight are hanging down, make sure the knots are not damaged in any way or they won't be kosher.
Speaker 2:And so eight, six hundred plus eight plus five adds up to 613, which is the number of commandments in the law. That's the reminder.
Speaker 1:Okay, so when someone comes to prayer and they've got their prayer shawl on and they're ready, it's just a time of reflection and just remembering. It's a symbol, isn't it it?
Speaker 2:is a symbol.
Speaker 1:It's a symbol. That's right, that we're just reminding ourselves of the 613 commandments laws in the Old Testament, that's right. And I've also seen a few times where they hold them. They just hold them. I've seen that. I've watched that online where they just hold them. It's like a palm cross, isn't it? Obviously, where I work in the hospice, people like to have a palm cross just to hold it in their hand. It's just a very small cross, very smooth, very, and that that actually comes from Jerusalem as well.
Speaker 2:Then, once we all get them from and that there's a nice bit of information that comes from them Palm crosses.
Speaker 1:It tells you how they were made, where they come from, but it's when you hold it. It just gives you a moment just to reflection. But we've got to understand that there's no power in the prayer shawl, so we don't want everyone going out, rushing off, flying out to Israel and you can't even at the moment, can you?
Speaker 2:get there at the moment only if you've got relatives.
Speaker 1:But it's a very interesting garment and I've got to be honest, I am really fascinated with it. I keep it in my vehicle with me. I look at it, but it's a point I just remember. It makes me think it's not because I am a religious person and I'm not stuck in tradition completely the opposite, if anything with me over the last few years but it's fascinating to know the history behind it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's supposed to be. Is it a focus of prayer? That's?
Speaker 1:the whole idea in a sense at all.
Speaker 2:You know people might have a pattern because it's good to be. Is it a focus of prayer? That's the whole idea, in a sense of a tool. You know people might have a pattern because it's good to be disciplined. You know we're disciples, after all, aren't we? Yes, and so if you've got something that helps you, yeah, to be disciplined in your prayer, then that's a good thing, isn't it? Yeah?
Speaker 1:I think it's a very good religious but it's a nice and I need to be careful that I don't become almost like a loose cannon where I brought up in the world of church that was under certain ministers that was so disciplined it became a pain.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I've got to be careful that I don't go the opposite way and become not blasé, but just I don't know, don't need, don't need structure, Don't need this. We just go with the flow of the Holy spirit. So you've got to be careful of that one as well. But trying to get a nice, steady place to sit is very, very difficult in that area.
Speaker 2:But this is really fascinating.
Speaker 1:So the five knots, yeah. Now you're probably going to say, of course it's not, don't be crazy, they're just knots, aren't they? Oh yeah, as I look at them, because you can make your own prayer shawl.
Speaker 2:Can't you see you? Can yeah you can follow the directive in the Bible. Follow the instruction, Tie the tassels five knots, and you know you can make your own prayer shawl.
Speaker 1:And you've made your own prayer shawl. Now, when we talk about Christ in the New Testament, where the lady with the issue of blood oh yes, she came up and the scripture says that if I can just touch the hem of his garment, now the scripture says that if I can just touch the hem of his garment, now, obviously christ would have had these off all corners of his garment. Yep, so that? What is that what she was intending to touch? If I can touch the hem of his garment, so the hem is a very significant part it is yeah
Speaker 2:purely because it's got these hanging off and it's signifying that jesus was a observant jew, that's what he was, you know. There's another interesting point, isn't there, and it says in malachi malachi, son of righteousness, will rise with healing in his wings now, that's quite interesting, see, because the wings. What are the wings? You know, you see this image god. You know it talks about god having wings and covering luggage, but but actually what that a lot of jewish people had said was, you know, the wings are the prayer shawl.
Speaker 1:Okay, so the four corners, yeah, the wings, so that that you know it's a confession of faith.
Speaker 2:In a certain sense. What she's saying is you know, I believe you're the messiah, the son of righteousness, you know, in the sunset oh, is that the sunshine but the son of righteousness. So she is making a confession of faith, saying I believe I can get healing from you. So yeah, yeah, I mean okay. It doesn't say she touched the, you know the prayer shawl, no, but to lead. But it does say you know you can see the whole picture there of her being observant jew, him being and thinking right.
Speaker 2:If I could just touch the the hem of his garment where the seat seat hangs, and I'll be healed yeah, that's very.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if I can touch the hem of his garment. We know that must have been a real big struggle for her, because they're the amount of people pressing against them. We know what the scripture says about um. The disciples says how can you, how can you say someone has touched you but touch the hem of his garment, not actually his, his physical body, when you think, about that.
Speaker 2:It was the hem it was the hem of the garment.
Speaker 1:So it wasn't his ankle, he wasn't ragging all of his ankle and he said power went out for me, didn't he?
Speaker 2:I said that for me. I said that amazing. So that's faith, you see god recognizes faith, isn't he? Because even though he didn't see the woman, no, you know, he felt faith, a touch of faith, yeah, you know, and he could respond to touch me and then you got the disciples saying what are you talking?
Speaker 1:about jesus, there's loads of us bombarding you and pushing you, but there's faith. Yeah, it's such an amazing story so this sure has brought that to life to me in one way, because I've often wondered about what he's talking about in his wings, you know, and then the tassels and the tzitzi and everything, and the 613 strands. Now this is a garment. I really am fascinated. Certain things that fascinate me, I think, because also the historical side of it, and then we talk about the crown of it.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, it's the crown. Yeah, at the top there that goes on the back of your neck. So it's the top of the prayer shawl, the one that goes over your head and then slips down to the back of your neck.
Speaker 1:And it has there the blessing or the prayer which I can read to you, if you like.
Speaker 2:It says is this the prayer? Yeah, you say that. Yeah, so as you. So what you do is you'd hold the first of all, put the pressure over your left shoulder, over your left shoulder shoulder, yet to look at the um, the seat seat. Well, put it over your shoulder, look at the seat seat, make sure it's all in place and everything, and then you will hold it out in front of you with the words if you have words some don't have words, that's fine, but if it does, the words on the crown at the top, which is what I'm looking at right now, which says lovely bit of garment blessed are you.
Speaker 2:Lord, our god, master of the universe, who sanctifies us with his commandments and commanded us to wrap ourselves in zizi. That's's what that says. So you say that prayer because that's what God said you know, come on, remember my commandment so and then you put the pressure on over your head a moment's thought and reflection, just to collect yourself in prayer, and then you can drop it to the back of your neck and sort of hitch it up a bit. So you've got your arms free.
Speaker 1:So so as you put it on earlier on. And we must emphasise it's not because of the garment has power, it's because it's the thought, the process and the time and taking time out as well, a reflective time, and not just rushing in and we were speaking about. We get a lot of hearing the word of getting to the prayer closet, and it's not so much an office, obviously, and a cupboard or something like that, but when you wear this in that certain way, you're, you're covered, aren't you?
Speaker 1:you're covered under your clothes, so that there's a there's a real concentration that you're blocking the outside out yeah so could we reference that and bring that to some point of like what we were talking about earlier, about the tabernacle where you're just you're, you're just at one with god, almost at where it's a point of contact. So you mentioned, um the preacher that earlier on, regarding that his mum would pray at the table obviously john and charles wesley's mother charles wesley, we know what john and charles?
Speaker 1:changed the world, didn't they really really Changed the world?
Speaker 2:Changed the world through them. Through them. But she used to pray in her kitchen with all the children. She had loads of children, so she would put a shawl. It wasn't really a prayer shawl, we don't know, but she used to put a shawl over her head. Okay, so in a way, we have to signify to the world that we're serious about God, don't we? So the prayer shawl can be that you know Jesus talks about going into your closet. Well, because when you've got a prayer shawl on, you're saying to yourself first of all, I'm going to pray. You're saying to God, I'm coming to meet with you and you're praying aren't you?
Speaker 1:how many people? How many people would take their mobile phone under the shawl?
Speaker 2:but it's a, it's a, it's a real discipline, isn't it?
Speaker 1:it's nothing to do with the garment itself, but it's a time of reflective time, like brian was just saying that, where you can shut yourself away from the craziness and the busyness and the humdrum of life, so it's a very powerful thing. So as soon as I think of Israel, I think of quite a few gentlemen that dress a certain way, with this over their shoulders and over their head, standing at the wall. That's right. You see that all the time.
Speaker 2:It's a very clear image, isn't it? Very clear image. I would say it the wailing wall. Yeah, you do. Yeah, you see that very much so yeah, very much the pressure was only for certain times. So, like yom kippur um for the torah reading services, which would be on a monday and a thursday.
Speaker 1:Can I just ask you, yeah, so it's not to be worn as a garment, as all day, most of the day, there are set times when you put this on. Yeah, for the pressure now, what they tend to wear during the day, because you'll see.
Speaker 2:You know, when you're flying this on, yeah for the prayer show now what they tend to wear during the day, because you'll see, you know, when you're flying on an airplane, or yeah, shopping or something, you'll see them. You'll see the the tassels. So they wear like a tabard smaller underneath.
Speaker 1:It'll be under their jacket so you'll see the tassels just hanging down. Yeah, you just see the bottom of it hanging down. I'll tell you what I've actually seen that in tottenham yeah, you would, you would yeah definitely yeah, you know the area.
Speaker 2:That's an everyday. Everyday they wear that.
Speaker 1:And I wonder what that was. To some degree, it's identity, it's identity. And also they seem to wear a lot of black. Is there any reason for that?
Speaker 2:Oh, we've got no no, no, no, no, you know it's the uniform, isn't it?
Speaker 1:People say it's, it's the uniform, isn't it? You know? People say that it sends that the black hats and the, the suits and everything you know. In certain parts of tottenham that I've driven around, I've actually I can actually picture these guys, yeah, with with the tassels just hanging out at the bottom and you just just see that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so, and I was at blue water shopping center yesterday no, tuesday, okay. A couple of days ago I was at blue water shopping center and I saw an orthodox family and, of course, the man had tassels really yeah, in blue water right on our doorstep you know it's interesting, isn't it? Because we, you know, those of us who are believers in jesus, will say we're clear about our faith and we know we, we wear our heart on our sleeve.
Speaker 1:But actually do we wear?
Speaker 2:something as obvious as this, you know, are we willing to wear a big badge saying I'm a follower of jesus?
Speaker 1:I love because jewish people you can identify them straight away straight away. They're not ashamed. No, who they are. That is an identification that that person has to be.
Speaker 2:I'm going to live righteously. So you know the thing is, when you, when you wear that, it's like wearing if you were a big hat saying I'm a christian, you'd think, right, I'd better make sure I drive what I say, because that is a big statement, isn't it? Yeah, it is a statement, so, people, will judge you and your faith on how you treat them.
Speaker 1:On how you? Yeah, so certain parts of London, what we're just referring to, I've often seen them at certain times of the day. So you just mentioned time set time, so so can you go. I know you just mentioned that, but I just interrupted and just shot over the top. There, can you? Can you just go back back pedal a bit and just say when and what times and what? What is the? So what is the correct? Sort of sure? Well, of course there isn't. The bible doesn't say that there is.
Speaker 2:It doesn't say that traditionally and it's good actually, in a way, it's a good not to do something all the time because you get used to it. So putting on the pressure, as we said, it brings focus, but there's certain time when it is worn. So you know it's definitely worn on yom kippur.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, it is often worn on the torah services when they read the torah in the synagogue so that would be on a monday and a thursday and, of course, on shabbat as well and during the other feasts and festivals. So it's time when you're coming to do you know, to be together, to worship together, to pray and that sort of thing. So it's um, those important times. That's when it's traditionally warm really interesting.
Speaker 1:You know, if any, all those guys and girls listening at this moment, I would definitely google it and it's a fascinating garment just to look at and spend hours just looking at it. It's very, very intriguing. It is to me. But I've got to keep emphasising there's no power actually in the material or the garment itself. It's what it does and what it symbolises. That's what it is. That's the importance of it. So, Brian, so we can pick these up.
Speaker 2:You know, you can get them online, can't you? You? Can get them, you, you know they vary a lot in price, don't they? I mean work to say morning prayers is also one as well, morning prayers.
Speaker 1:But yeah, yeah, you can you can talk about morning prayers is there? Is there a set time for that?
Speaker 2:yeah, there is sets prayers what to pray in the morning yeah, not particular time. Some do have a time, no, but it's about actually so, if you had a garment that you thought yourself right morning prayers, yeah, you'd have to pray in the morning, wouldn't you? It's another way of focusing. There's a word caverner, caverner okay, that is about the serious intent to pray. That's what it really means. So they use that when they think about the pressure that you're making a serious intent to pray, but yeah you can get them anyway okay, so we're just talking about prayer, our powerful prayer.
Speaker 1:You know the prayers are righteous, personal, powerful and effective. And prayer I, our powerful prayer. You know the prayer is a righteous person, powerful and effective. And prayer I've seen prayer in my life time and time and time again and I know you have. You know where we come from and what we stand for and what we believe in in prayer. That's what this is all about.
Speaker 1:It's not about a uniform. It's not about oh, look at him, look at them. You know it is about prayer. Yeah, that is the purpose. That is the number one thing behind that to be focused on God. And there's probably a lot of people out there going, oh, do you know what? What's the point? What's the point of that? You don't need all that, but I get that. I understand what they might be thinking and might be saying, but what it does to me, it makes me focus, like you were saying. It gives me a focal point, because we are living in a world that is so, uh, fast and furious. Sometimes you need a time just to grab something, just to sit, just to look at it, just to look at the tassels, because it makes you, it seems to almost clear your thinking of all the chaos that's around. So I can truly identify about putting that over yourself and just blocking the world out.
Speaker 2:Yeah well, symbols can be important, can't they you? Know we don't want to be religious about things, but actually we are. You know, god designed us to be tactile, to touch things, to see things. Yes, and respond to that so and that's something that god has given us isn't it. And if it, helps us to get closer to god, then that's okay, we're not worship, we're not making a requirement on anyone to do it. If they don't want to, that's fine, that's fine, it's up to them.
Speaker 1:But it's just the history as well. It seems to bring it alive more. It seems to be yeah, it's a powerful bit of a garment, it really is. So is there anything else we need to know, brian, about the garment? We can get them online, you know. You can either Google earlier. You know they're everywhere, aren't they? But they do vary a lot in cost as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they do.
Speaker 1:They do and you were talking about. You can have a personalised.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, some people would have ones made personally Sounds like a number plate, doesn't it? You know, traditionally it's supposed to be made of wool mine is cotton.
Speaker 1:I think yours is as well. Yeah, um, made of wool, but it doesn't really matter.
Speaker 2:People spend a lot of money on them, but, as I said before, god looks at the heart, so he doesn't think oh look, you've spent more money, therefore you're more righteous. That's just. God doesn't think like that does he at all?
Speaker 1:it's the heart, isn't it?
Speaker 2:yeah, but people may want to spend more.
Speaker 1:I can understand why people will want to spend more. Because if you're personalizing it, yeah it, it's your own personal item. It's got meaning behind it there. There you know, and it's not so much. Not we're worshiping this garment. We're not worshiping, we're not making an idol out of it, but it is absolutely fascinating. I would tell anyone, um, that has never seen one or got one, to grab one you know they're actually cheap enough. They're like 20 30 pound. You see them online and the sizes are different as well yeah, that's right yeah and that is.
Speaker 1:Am I right in thinking that I've seen one that is is thinner?
Speaker 2:yes, like a tabard. Like a tabard everyday wear so that's an everyday wear.
Speaker 1:Does that still have the?
Speaker 2:uh should do the tassel because the tassels is the most important thing, because anything else is what we're talking about.
Speaker 1:That's what we're talking about. That's really. That's the commandment in the scripture. Okay so I have um, yeah, and what's that one called? It's called like a I'm describing it as a tapard?
Speaker 2:yeah, but it's a it's a small, a small pressure for everyday use. Yeah, because, of course, because the guys can't see it now, but you know it's a big thing to keep pulling over yourself. They wear these tabards, the small tallit all day long.
Speaker 1:So we can find this in the Bible, you can get a biblical reference to it, and we just mentioned the lady with the issue of blood, which is really important. So Christ wore that. He had that coming off the wings of his garment. Fascinating, Right, Brian. Let's move on to the next item that we've got today. What should we pick? Look at the horn. Is it a ram's horn? A shofar, that is A shofar. A shofar. We mentioned that a week ago. Yeah, I know, yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, so I've got mine with me now. Mine's quite a small one. I mean, you see, some of these things people know we're talking about. It's a ram's horn. Some of them like a couple of feet long yeah, my one is quite a small one, which is fine because it still makes a noise, not that I'm very good at learning have a look at ours so yeah, so look at that.
Speaker 1:Very interesting net, very natural. So what is the history behind this? So on, on this table we got today, we've got a few items that have a lot of biblical meaning, really don't they, they, they. We have got some great stuff amongst us today.
Speaker 2:The shofar is mentioned 80 times in Scripture. 80 times, that's quite a few times, yeah.
Speaker 1:Is it mentioned obviously more in the Old.
Speaker 2:Yes, it is. Yeah, but actually funny enough, it may use the word trumpet or other sort of words, but actually it's more in the Old Testament. Yes, actually it's. What people may not realize is it's very prevalent in the new. You know the sound of the trumpet, the sound of the trumpet the sound of the trumpet. It's talking about the Shafar, really it's talking about the.
Speaker 2:Shafar. Yeah, so you know, and that's very significant. The sound of the trumpet isn the ram's horn. It goes right back to abraham and isaac. You know abraham, yeah, what they call the um, the adek akadah, which is the time when abraham took isaac to be sacrificed, yes, and you know the story, how he was going to lift it up the knife and then they heard a call and there was a ram caught in a thicket yeah, by its horns.
Speaker 2:So that's the first sort of reference. So that's the first reference in a sense, yeah, that's the first reference and the significance in a significant way to that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and of course, that prefigured the death of christ, didn't it? Yeah, the sacrifice of isaac, yeah, the death of jesus. It prefigured that as well, because many jewish people don't recognize that, of course, with with, with jesus, but but it did prefigure, it pointed to it and um. So that is the the origins really of this ram's horn and its significance in in biblical history, and but it's used for all sorts of symbols. So it's also used if you look at the book of numbers, chapter 10, verse 9. It's about a spiritual war. It's a symbol of war as well. So you know the victory over sin and that sort of thing. So it comes from new, old to new testament okay, so it comes all the way through.
Speaker 1:So is there a set times in the day when that, that's, that's used, that's blown? Yeah, is that when? When do they use this? What is the purpose?
Speaker 2:okay, well, there's a number of times to use the ram's horn on the shofar. Okay, so, to sound the alarm, to convene, meeting together, the new moon, for jubilee years, for military campaigns. You'll see it in Judges and Chronicles and Nehemiah that they use the shofar to sound the trumpet, for all these different sort of things, to make the sound, but really you can overuse it. Ok, because there is in the Bible appointed times, in the bible appointed times and, interestingly, um, from where we are now, when we're doing this recording, we are just approaching the beginning of the month, the month before the new year. Okay, so rosh hashanah, the feast of trumpets. The feast of trumpets is in september. Yeah, so, uh, from where we are now, that's a about a month or so a month away now the month before the feast of trumpets el.
Speaker 2:What they do is every day of that month they sound the shofar every day every day except for the first day, the last day and the shabbat, sabbath. Okay, okay, so, um, in a couple of days time they will start blowing it in the synagogue and other places once a day once a day.
Speaker 1:Is there a set time for that, or is there it's?
Speaker 2:just when they come together. It's just when they come together, it's just when they come together or different times, during the prayer times, during the service in the synagogue, and then on the Rosh Hashanah, the head of the year, the new year, they will sound it a hundred times in the service.
Speaker 1:It's required to be a hundred times Now I've heard that blown in this church and I tell you what it was loud it made me jump at my skin.
Speaker 2:So once was enough, let alone a hundred times. It's to remind people isn't it? It's to remind people of being right before god, to remind people of the you know these the seriousness of things. So that's why and I know that some congregations in israel have a no shofar policy and the reason they do that is because they don't want to cheapen the effect yeah, they want it to be used for the right reasons, for the right reasons to sound the right things so feast of trumpets talks about, in our context of believers in in jesus.
Speaker 2:Talks about the end times, the last trumpet.
Speaker 1:Okay, so so you see the parallel as it reads across.
Speaker 2:You know it reads across rosh hashanah and everything it's really fascinating.
Speaker 1:So we've got the prayer shul, we've got the shofar, and then we're going on to the next item that we have before us Now the menorah.
Speaker 2:Is that how you pronounce that? That's right menorah.
Speaker 1:Menorah. So all these items these three items that we've got today that obviously you can't see, but you can Google you've got the menorah, you've got the shofar and you've got the prayer shawl are all steeped in the history, all the way through the Old Testament right up to the New. Exactly yeah, and it's a very vivid image that I have when I think of, when I see someone at the Wailing Wall, the Wall of Prayer Is that the correct terminology?
Speaker 2:Yeah, the Western Wall. The Western Wall. Yeah, cotel is what we call it. It's the Western Wall.
Speaker 1:Just while we're on the wall. Is it true that you push your prayers in between the stones? Oh, yes, if you go and pray at the Western Wall.
Speaker 2:Well, because it's a tradition, because it's the nearest place. Well, actually, well, because it's considered. I mean it's a tradition because you know it's the nearest place. Well, actually, you can get a bit nearer now where they open the western wall tunnels, but for many, many years it was the nearest they could get to where the holy of holies was.
Speaker 2:So you know they can't go up on the top because, it's controlled by the muslims on the top, so that's where they and they're certainly not allowed to pray. There are certain times when they go there, but it's illegal for a jew to pray there. Okay, it's actually under the peace agreement. They're not allowed to pray. So that was the nearest they could get. So people from all over the world bring prayers and they stick them in the wall so can we unpack that a little bit, a moment when you're talking about time?
Speaker 1:so you're not. You're not allowed to go to that wall at certain times, that you're only allowed all the time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, up on top oh, up on the top of the temple man, sorry, up on the top of the Temple Mount, sorry, sorry, up on the top Of the Temple Mount.
Speaker 1:So you can face the wall, and that's 24 hours, seven days a week. That's there, yeah, and that's the image that I have of people with the prayer shawls.
Speaker 1:That's right, yeah, praying there, praying at that wall, putting prayers at the wall, and and then also I have an image I think I see it not long ago a few weeks ago actually, I was reading a bit literature where someone was standing on the hill I think I mentioned this last time we was in here. They had a pressure one. The Sun was lit on a lovely mountainside. You only see the back of them, you see the garment and then the, the trumpet was being blown. No, it's a, so to me it's a very significant part of and Israel.
Speaker 1:When I think of Israel, I always think of these three items Symbols, yeah, Obviously corpse, I think of Jesus, without any shadow of a doubt, but very significant, you know, and it heeds away the truth and the life. But we understand that there's no power in these, they're just symbols, they're just what they reflect and the history behind them, which is very, very fascinating. So, coming back to the… yeah, menorah. So I would say menorah, which I hope you said is correct. Yep, so it's not to put actually candles in, it's to carry oil isn't it Oil?
Speaker 1:yes, it's to carry oil, because obviously, a lot of the times now we have candles in them and not oil.
Speaker 2:Well, that's okay, but originally so. It's interesting, in the menorah, which has seven lampstands on it, it's designed by God. You've talked about these symbols, the rams or the prayer shawl, but actually, if you look back to Exodus 25, verse 31 to 40, god gives Moses a pattern. He tells this is how you're going to build. He even says that you saw the pattern. He tells this is how you're going to build it. He even says that you saw. So Moses had a distinct pattern of how to build the menorah, how to make it out of one piece of gold and how the almond blossom should be on it and all things like this. And interesting, if you look at Hebrews 8 and verse 5, it talks about these things being a pattern of something in heaven. So Moses got a glimpse of something in heaven and of course we we see in revelation, don't we as well? We do seven golden lampstands, so you know that it's. This is actually in heaven. You know this. This, this is a, the menorah we see.
Speaker 1:Mine's very simple something very elaborate, very elaborate, but it's a symbol of something in heaven.
Speaker 2:It's significant. It's interesting also that it's quite often that the menorah is the thing that's desecrated. You know, when we read about history, when the temple is attacked and taken either the menorah is melted down, it disappears off, or it gets desecrated and dedicated to a foreign god. Because it's significant, the menorah, it is very significant.
Speaker 1:So we understand that there are we look at that now and that there are seven. That's right, there are seven, but there is one that has nine. That's right, yes, and when is that one used and what is the significance of that one?
Speaker 2:Okay, so that's at Hanukkah, which is generally in December. Often it coincides with Christmas, so the Hanukkah. So what happened was it's in between the 400 years between the closing of the old testament, the old and new testament okay was.
Speaker 2:Uh, during that time was the time of the maccabees. Well, not all the time, but what happened was the greek empire uh, putting it quickly, took over israel, desecrated the temple. Then there was a maccabee rebellion, where the jewish people had a war against the greeks, defeated them. A much bigger army took back the temple, went into the temple and everything had been desecrated okay, by Antiochus, epiphanes IV. And it had been desecrated and they had none of the special oil, because this oil takes eight days to make, to burn, eight days. Yeah, there's a special formula in the Old Testament for how to make the oil and takes to purify and to dedicate. It takes eight days because it means feast of dedication dedication. You see that in the scripture, jesus was walking in the temple on the feast of dedication. You've seen john 10, I believe.
Speaker 2:So what happened was they wanted to relight the menorah, but they didn't have any. But they found a little tiny piece of oil. So they put the little piece of oil in the hanukkah and they in the menorah and they lit it and it lasted for eight days. This little tiny piece of oil in the hanukkah and they and the menorah and they lit it and it lasted for eight days, this little, tiny piece of oil. So they see that as a miracle. So what they do is every year to commemorate that wonderful victory. The wonderful rededication of the temple is they use a menorah with, uh, with nine, yeah so nine oil reservoirs or nine candles.
Speaker 2:Some people use one of the candles, so they like one every day okay one every day to commemorate that feast of eight days, and the ninth one is used to light the others oh, I see, this is a commemoration of deliverance and it's a really as a message of victory over assimilation. You know, as believers, there's two ways that we can be destroyed External, internal, okay.
Speaker 1:So we can either become people can kill us being believers, and that does happen all over the world.
Speaker 2:That does happen Persecution. But the other danger is inwardly, we become assimilated to the world around us.
Speaker 1:We're no different. That could be the bigger killer. That's the danger. That's the biggest danger. I think that is the biggest danger.
Speaker 2:So that's what was happening. That was why the Jews rebelled against the Greek. Yeah, because many Jews were assimilating, they were taking away their traditions. Oh, you can't read the Bible anymore, you can't pray, you can't do this. And in the end, righteous Jews stood up and said we're not doing this anymore. You know, we're going to lose our identity as Jewish people, and Jewish people were just assimilating. So it's a victory over assimilation and a victory over an external power as well.
Speaker 1:So that's what Hanukkah's all about. It's worth looking into.
Speaker 2:It's a lot more detailed than that, but look into it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so that's the difference between the two menorahs.
Speaker 2:That's the two.
Speaker 1:yeah, and it's still called a menorah is it.
Speaker 2:We called it a Hanukkiah.
Speaker 1:A a hanakia, a hanakia, hanakia, hanakia. So the one with nine on is a hanakia, that's right, and the one that we have here amongst us today is a traditional menorah, menorah which has seven oil do you burn oil in them at home? Do you use that at all?
Speaker 2:I sometimes use candles.
Speaker 1:We understand that, yeah, but yeah, we grew up, we grasped that. But they're like reservoirs, aren't they?
Speaker 2:that just carried oil is more of a symbol, isn't it? I mean?
Speaker 1:you think of the oil?
Speaker 2:you know, the symbol of the Holy Spirit and that side of things, which is what it originally is, and I mean originally, of course it was in the temple. There was only one. It was in the temple. So of course, when the temple was lost, they began to be used in synagogues as well, and then people use them at home. That's interesting.
Speaker 1:So it's obviously Thursday today. Tomorrow is a very important day in the calendar. Am I got this right In a Messianic Jew's life?
Speaker 2:Yes, it is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, in every Jewish person. Yeah, shabbat, so Shabbat. So will they light that? Will they light that at home on a Friday? They'll probably light one candle.
Speaker 2:So they might light one. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Because when you talk about candles, without going into too much depth and pinpointing any particular religion, candles are used a lot, aren't they? They are yeah.
Speaker 2:And sometimes.
Speaker 1:I know Christians say to me when I'm in the chapel where I work in the hospice, they say you're a Christian. I said, yeah, why are you lighting candles? I say, well, to me personally, a candle is a time of reflective time. You light that it's not because I am doing it for any other reason, it's because it's a reflective time to me. A candle, I think it's a time just to look at the flame, it means a lot.
Speaker 2:So Friday, tomorrow, is it from any time in the day that people At sundown, at sundown, yeah, so it begins just before sundown and then goes over the time of the sun going down and into the evening with the meal and everything. That's a Shabbat. That's really important. Candles are important because it's it's a symbol of light, isn't it?
Speaker 2:it's a symbol of light and the light of the world the jewish people were called to be a light to the world. That was their calling, wasn't it? That's originally what they were the light to the world. And then, of course, jesus picked up on that theme when he said I am the light of the world. Yes, and they said you are the light of the world as well. So light is a symbol, you know, of enlightenment and learning, of understanding, of reason, all these different things like just, we think you know, when you think of light. Okay, we're thinking of light that helps us to see, isn't it?
Speaker 1:it's a funny it's a word.
Speaker 2:If you really think about the word light, it's not just seeing our way, but you say, oh, I've got light on that matter. I understand that matter and, of course, what was there at the beginning, right at the beginning let there be light, let there be more than just seeing with your eyes. It was let there be understanding understanding that there'd be everything you know, we, god, created so powerful light isn't, it goes right the way through.
Speaker 2:So when we light the candle, it's symbolizing not only that we can see, but it's symbolizing, you know, the light to the world as well and how powerful is light in a dark room?
Speaker 1:yeah, that's right. As soon as you strike a match, a tiny, a tiny glimmer of a spark suddenly changes the atmosphere. So it's, it's very significant, all the stuff that we're looking at today. So can we just pedal back a moment and talk about on a friday? Yeah, so is. Can you give me a quick rundown and everyone listening of what, what it would be for someone tomorrow? And you said they might like one, or they might leave it or or light one, so is. Is the food important as well? So they finish work at a certain time, they get ready. Does the prayer shawl come into that, would you imagine?
Speaker 2:some families would use that, some of the men would wear the prayer shawl, and you know, of course, it's very different in israel because the first day of the week is sunday, so, like it's monday in the uk, sunday is when they go to work sunday is the weekend is like friday, saturday so it's friday, saturday, so they're a day.
Speaker 2:They're a day ahead of us yeah, so many, many will feel that's what the bible says about your back. So it's the seventh day. So many would either not work on a friday or finish early on a friday, and then they get the house ready, they get the meal ready. It's additional time of family. It's the time of of learning, of speaking to your children about why do we do this. So there's traditional set prayers and things that you say. So you should use it as an opportunity to teach and to learn, as a time of faith. Now, now, sometimes we've lost that, you know.
Speaker 2:Sunday can be the busiest day, you know Sundays, but really the day which is traditional Christian day, but you know, the Shabbat is for Jewish people, for many Jewish believers in Jesus, so it's a day of rest, it's a day when you be with your family, it's a time when you reflect upon your upon God and your relationship with God, and I think we've lost a lot of that.
Speaker 1:But you'll see it in Jewish families.
Speaker 2:Now, sadly, you know, I know that many Jewish families. It's just Friday night meal, so there are, you know, Jewish families who don't believe in God, or just sort of nominal, and so they'll just get together for a meal, which is a good thing, but actually God put it in place that we should come and put him first.
Speaker 1:So when you've been in Israel, is that a big thing on a Friday afternoon? Oh, it is yeah, it's a very big thing there's a big rush.
Speaker 2:Say, the sun goes down at 4.30, so about 3 o'clock, everybody's rushing, let's get sound. It's almost that long sound, the sound of the shofar. It's the sound. Right, the sun's gone down, it's now the Shabbat.
Speaker 1:Let's rest. That's when the shofar's blown as well.
Speaker 2:They will make a sound. Yeah, they'll make a sound.
Speaker 1:So this all ties together very, very, very smoothly and very powerfully.
Speaker 2:So the Shabbat, the Shabbat, that's right. Sabbath Sundown.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so they start that Sundown to sundown, and is there any pattern to what food they eat over that weekend, or is it whatever's in the cupboard? It'd?
Speaker 2:be a special meal. You know, is it a special meal? It would be, yeah, a special time of cooking is very important. But we always say if there's no food, he's not Jewish.
Speaker 1:It's got to involve food. We've got to involve food. So where is the? So you referenced, didn't you, about the menorah of the clear instruction. So what is that reference? Have you got that reference there again?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so if you, wanted to look up what it says. So, exodus 25, 31 to 40 and 37, 17 to 24. Excellent, okay, that talks about when God gives the pattern for the menorah, but of course you see it in hebrews 8 5, so the hebrews is talking about the pattern that's been set out.
Speaker 2:um, of course, in revelation, the seven branches, you can see that in chapters revelation, 1, 12 and 13 talks about the messiah walking amongst the seven branches. So there's, you know, it's a pattern that something happening in heaven. It really is and it appears, you know, right through the scriptures as well. If we look at 1 John as well 1 John 1, 5, 7, it talks about being a light. We need God is light and we need his light as well. So it all points back to that.
Speaker 1:So it's absolutely fascinating, brian, this afternoon, all these three really powerful items that we have in front of us. Can we just finish off just talking about, um, what's been your experience about going to the wall, the prayer wall? Have you experienced anything special there, or is it? Can I just say this like this, just seemed like a wall no, no, it is important.
Speaker 2:Um, I mean obviously several times there's more to it than people realize, because you can go under the sort of tunnels as well inside and in a way it's a sad place because it reminds us of the destruction of the temple. Now I know we are, as believers in Jesus, we are now the temple of God. We don't need a physical temple anymore because we, personally and corporately, are the temple of the Holy Spirit, it says in Corinthians. That's very clear. But what I find very sad is that people are very dedicated men and women at different parts of the wall and if you go under the temple tunnels you see women praying there as well and they're very serious about their prayers. And to me the thing that makes me sad is many don't know their Messiah.
Speaker 2:They're looking for. They're looking for this temple to be rebuilt. Maybe it will, maybe it won't. Scripture seem to point that it will, um, but actually the most important thing is they find their messiah. You know, that's the most important thing. And and jewish people haven't most haven't, you know they're looking for something. They're very serious and I admire that they are very serious.
Speaker 1:They need to realize that messiah has come they don't need a temple anymore.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, you know we are, we are. We are a king. Those who are believers in jesus are a kingdom of priests and kings, and they too could be part of that as well if they recognize and accept the messiah. So there's that sadness, but also I just look, you know it is lovely going to the wall, because it just is. It's fascinating to go there and I pray there as well because it's important. It's part of my identity as a jewish believer in jesus. That's important to me because it's about my heritage and it's about my history and I recognize that down through history, you know many, many jewish people. Millions have died, as we know, not only a lot of millions, but before that as well, millions have died because of their identity.
Speaker 2:We spoke earlier about their identity. Jewish people have always identified themselves as who they are, standing with their God, and they've paid the price down through history for that.
Speaker 1:And they did that very well. You can spot a Jewish person. That's very clear, can't you? Yeah, very, very clear. So you mentioned about the tunnels underneath the wall. Can you just open that up a bit? What is that?
Speaker 2:So you've got the western wall and I'm sure people can picture that in their mind. Yes to the. Now there's the ladies section of the men's section they can't make. I didn't know that. Yeah, there's a lady section and then section always seems the lady section is busier. I know it's a bit smaller, but it sounds like church.
Speaker 1:It doesn't.
Speaker 2:Ladies are always, but there's the men's section, and on the left, if you're looking at the western wall, there's a tunnel which people don't often see until they go there, and if you go under there it extends for another, or I'd say about another hundred foot probably, maybe longer underneath and there are many prayer books in their study books and there are many men in there praying as well. I mean, sometimes you go and then there might be 200 men in there but you can't see them because they're underground there. But also over recent years they've excavated. Now that western wall is just a part of the whole side of the Temple Mount.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, so it goes on for now I'm going to get it wrong several 700, maybe longer, all the way along right out to further into the old city of Jerusalem. So now they've excavated so you can get even closer to where the Holy of Holies was Very close, and that's men and women can go there, so you often see women praying even closer. But you go through this tunnel that takes you right out and it comes out right near the church, the flagellation, it comes out right near the Fortress Antonio where the Roman garrison was.
Speaker 2:And you can go underground and if you don't mind going underground, it's absolutely fascinating. They take you on a tour there, there and you can follow the wall right. It was built by herod and everything. There's a lot of history there, this whole length of the temple mount very.
Speaker 1:So when you say they've excavated, they've actually through archaeologists yeah, they have found that it extends further. So when you say a tunnel, you're not talking about a man-made tunnel.
Speaker 2:Now, no, no, no, you're talking about what? We are referencing and what we understand you're going to imagine it.
Speaker 2:You've got the temple mount, okay so before, right back in history, before the time of the romans, this big temple mount was built. Okay, with the walls on four sides, it's clear, so you can see. The walls were high. In fact they have ramps to go up to the top of the temple mount.
Speaker 2:Okay, what's happened over time? You know, the romans destroyed the temple, pushed the walls over, filled up that gap, so there was like valleys all the way around it. So they've been filled with rubble and dirt and then people have built on top of it. So even when the Israelis took back the temple in 1967, there were buildings within a couple of feet, close to that Western Wall, all the way along, so the whole thing. So they knocked those buildings down to make a plaza where they can pray. But also they've had to excavate all the time the old layers and layers, like any ancient city has been built upon and built upon. So you can't see most of the temple mount on the western side because the whole city is built against it. So this tunnel goes underneath the old city and that's the original tunnel.
Speaker 2:Well, they've dug it out well, they've dug it out, so they're digging it down to the first century level, goodness they're doing. And there's massive cisterns down there full of water. So when they originally excavated. There's an interesting story that a british archaeologist was found these cisterns and these I mean they're big enough to be lakes and he said he's going around in a boat and he went through this boat into the in a monastery. Hang on a minute.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know, yeah I'm just trying to catch. My mind is trying to catch up with what you're saying. Yeah, so when you said I, I imagined just a small walkway but it's a massive complex.
Speaker 2:There are synagogues under there and everything.
Speaker 1:Oh, hang on a moment, this is a different this is a different subject, completely all together, but we're gonna have to finish in a moment. Maybe we can expand next week or whenever we come back. Let me get this right. So where we see them praying on this wall. Yeah, if you follow that wall along, you're saying it goes underground. Yeah, for quite a considerable distance, but underneath the ground there are, there is water. So when you mentioned water, I just thought you meant just a few troughs of water but you are talking about and you said about systems.
Speaker 2:So the bible talks about systems, places to store water. So it seems, you know, they're always saying well, could be this, could be that, because archaeologists always discovering on this. So one of the theories is that it was. The systems were designed by herod the great because you need a lot of water.
Speaker 2:You know you've got a lot of people there yeah, plus all the sacrifices you've got to wash it away. You need water to wash that way. So water has been brought to the site and these massive systems full of water will fall in there and they're very deep and so lots of water to bring water to the temple mount and it's all underground now. Of course, it would have been different in in a time of jesus, because the temple mount would have been very clear. It would be more open yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:But of course the other thing we've got to add to it is that the temple mount was destroyed, so the one we see now is not the one. In the time of jesus it was rebuilt right but you know, by the yes, the muslim people took over the temple mount 500 years ago. They rebuilt a lot of it, so know who knows what it really looks like, but it is definitely excavating all the time. There's always things they're discovering there.
Speaker 1:What fascinating things have been found out in Israel underground All the stuff that's hidden that we haven't even found yet that's going to be exposed soon and a little bit further down the timeline of life.
Speaker 1:But, brian, it's been absolutely fascinating to have you with us for this hour today. We really thank God for your life and your family and the ministry and everything. Thank you so much for coming and sharing all this stuff. And we could go on for hours and I just pray that God will continue to strengthen you and everything that you say and everything that you do. But if anybody wants to find you, they can find you simply online, maoz.
Speaker 2:Yep, maoz Yep.
Speaker 1:MaozIsraeluk, maozisraeluk Find that. Please, please, have a search. Brian Greenaway. Reverend Brian Greenaway, you will find them, and you're based down in Borough Green aren't you?
Speaker 2:That's right, yeah, near.
Speaker 1:Sevenoak. The office is down in Sevenoak, that's right. That's our Just recapping. So we've spoken about Menara, we've spoken about the shofar and the prayer shawl, and if anybody wants any more information, they can find you. But obviously, through the greatness of technology and the World Wide Web, you've only got to Google and you will find so much stuff. Fascinating, isn't it? It certainly is Absolutely fascinating. Thank you so much, brian, thanks Ben, thanks for joining us.
Speaker 1:You've been listening to us here at Elam Church in Swanley. Stay safe, look after yourself, and we'll thank you from the very bottom of our heart here at hashtag christian straight talk for the thousands of downloads across the earth. We are literally blown away by what is happening here in our studio and we just want to encourage you. On buzzsprout, spotify, iheart radio, apple and so many other platforms that we are pushing these to, we just want to say will you come and walk with us to another platform? Will you stretch your eyes? Will you stretch your legs? Will you come to Patreon? You know, you've probably heard of it, you probably are supporting some other creators on there, some other podcasters, but will you come and support us? Just download the app. It's simple, it's easy to find in the app store and then, once you've found cst christian straight talk, and then it becomes really easy. Just choose between two tiers the jonathan or the david and you know how it works.
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