Reverend Ben Cooper's Podcast
Reverend Ben Coopers podcast, offers an inviting space for listeners to explore Christianity and spiritual growth with wisdom, humor, and a deep commitment to biblical truth. Through Rev. Ben's engaging conversations with guests, the podcast not only explores the timeless wisdom of the Bible but also tackles the pressing issues of life, faith, and hope in a way that is accessible, thought-provoking, and enriching. Whether you’re seeking spiritual nourishment, answers to life’s big questions, or simply a place to reflect on your faith, the Rev Ben podcast is a valuable resource on your journey.
In each episode, Rev. Ben guides listeners through profound theological reflections, personal stories, and practical insights drawn from the Bible and the broader Christian tradition.
Reverend Ben Cooper's Podcast
Faith Under Fire: Stories of Persecuted Christians Around the World. (#709 - Elim) RI
This episode of Reverend Ben Cooper's podcast highlights the urgent plight of persecuted Christians.
"Join Reverend Ben Cooper and Johnny from Release International as they shed light on the global plight of persecuted Christians. Discover powerful testimonies from India, Pakistan, and Eritrea that reveal the resilience of faith amidst adversity. Learn how believers worldwide endure oppression, hold on to hope, and inspire the global church.
Through compelling stories of transformation and forgiveness, this episode invites listeners to strengthen their own faith and support the persecuted through prayer and action."Johnny from Release International joins us to shine a light on the often-overlooked plight of persecuted Christians worldwide, offering us a unique perspective on what "oppression" truly means for those living under its shadow. Through the powerful narratives shared in the Voice magazine, he connects the UK church with global stories of faith and endurance, urging us to learn from the resilience of believers facing hardships. With a passion that is both palpable and contagious, Johnny inspires us to strengthen our own faith and commitment to our communities by engaging with these impactful testimonies.
We travel to India to understand the dire state of religious tolerance under the BJP government, led by Prime Minister Modi. Personal stories from targeted pastors provide a stark insight into the oppressive conditions and rising persecution against minority religions, including Christianity and Islam. The stories of steadfast individuals like Joshua and Pastor Virginia, who continue to minister with love and forgiveness despite enduring trauma, reveal the incredible strength of Christian faith. Their resilience mirrors biblical tales of hope and justice, reminding us of the urgent need for support and prayer for those facing persecution.
Witness the transformative power of faith through the conversion stories from Pakistan and Eritrea, where individuals have experienced profound spiritual awakenings amidst adversity. These narratives paint a vivid picture of the courage required to embrace Christianity in face of peril and societal rejection. Through the lens of these real-life stories, we are reminded of the boundless reach of divine grace and the role of unexpected kindness and prayer in catalyzing change. Join us as we celebrate the unwavering spirit of believers who stand firm in their faith, offering a beacon of hope to the global Christian community.
This episode of Reverend Ben Cooper's podcast highlights the urgent plight of persecuted Christians, featuring insights from Johnny of Release International. Covering topics like Christian persecution, religious freedom, and the resilience of believers, the discussion explores the global realities faced by Christians in places like India, Pakistan, and Eritrea. Key themes include religious intolerance in India under the BJP government, faith under persecution, and the transformative power of Christian testimonies in regions of adversity. Listeners will discover stories of forgiveness, hope, and justice, and are invited to join the global church in prayer for the oppressed. Keywords such as global Christian resilience, advocacy for persecuted believers, and modern-day martyrs underscore the faith and courage required to endure these challenges, connecting believers worldwide through the unifying power of the Gospel.
https://www.pastorbencooper.co.uk/
Good morning and welcome. We thank you so much for joining us. Wherever you are, it may be the morning, it may be the afternoon, it may be the evening, wherever you are sitting situated, I should say it is tuesday, it is the 7th of may, it is about 20 past one here in the uk and we pray that, wherever you are scattered across this globe, that you feel the love of the father, the son, the holy spirit. As we recall, today we got our good friend, we got johnny, has come in from release international, has got some great things that he's going to share across the mic. So I'm going to sit back and be still which is very, very unusual and we're just going to engage in a light, general conversation of what's happening through Release International, through the world of the displaced, the persecuted Christian.
Speaker 1:And for those that just want to know, whatever the title is, it's oppression. We're looking at the word oppression. It's a very strong word, a very powerful word, but it's a word that needs to be unpacked and obviously Johnny's going to lead us in these conversations as we just sit, grab yourself a coffee, grab yourself a cup of tea, but wherever you are across the world, we want to say thank you to the tens of thousands of downloads and everybody that is just scattered out there. We are so blessed. Thank you so much, johnny. It's good to have you with us today.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for having me, Ben. It's a real pleasure to be here.
Speaker 1:We're so blessed that you've come and you've travelled a bit of a distance after the bank holiday weekend and we was with you not so long ago, wasn't we? Sandra was with us, but now we've got you on our own. You're opposite me and you've got that beautiful magazine voice. Is that correct?
Speaker 2:That's correct. That's what we call it and you know, the whole point of voice is that we are raising the voice of those who are persecuted to people like you know, you and I in the West, who are blessed by peace and prosperity.
Speaker 1:And the comforts.
Speaker 2:Oh, the comforts, oh my gosh. I think we talked about the comforts. Oh the comforts. Oh my gosh, johnny, come on. I think we talked about the comforts.
Speaker 2:Last time we did About how they can blind us from not only our own Christian mission but the reality for many Christians living their own missions worldwide.
Speaker 2:And it's going to be a real joy to kind of talk us through what's in the magazine this month, you know, and not to promote it for the sake of promoting, but actually, you know, part of our calling at Release International is to engage with the UK church in such a way that they are brought into fellowship with those who are suffering, and that includes not only, you know, kind of praying for them and loving them as well as we can distantly, but actually looking at their lives and their testimonies and going what can we learn from them?
Speaker 2:What can we learn from them that's going to equip us and empower us to be more effective for the Lord Jesus here in the UK and our local communities. And that's really what I want to bring today. We're going to look at some challenging material, but ultimately I think we're going to look at something that is really glorious of of ordinary men and women of God, uh, who are faithfully living through real trial but persisting in their faith because they know it's true and because actually they have a love for those around them which sometimes, if we're being honest, maybe uh outshines our own love for those around us in our communities.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:And that's really what I want to bring.
Speaker 1:So before sorry, Johnny, I'm just going to interrupt a moment Before you bring anything. Can I just ask, obviously, what the resource that you have got in front of you, the Voice magazine that is online for everybody? I've got it online. It's so easy to to grab that if anybody wants to read it, you just go on to release internationalorg. You know it'sa great magazine. It comes out, um, is it quarterly?
Speaker 2:quarterly quarterly yeah.
Speaker 1:So the question I've got and I know it's a very difficult question to answer the amount of hours and the amount of preparation and the amount of money that it costs to prepare such a beautiful piece of of information. It's a real beautiful bit of information. You can find it online. You don't even need to get the paperback version. Johnny's got that in front of him. I've got the electronic version. It's word for word. It's exactly the same as we look at online or or in the paperback version.
Speaker 2:But, johnny, the information that goes into this magazine, that's a lot of work to gather that we are very blessed at release international to have a really talented team that put this together of many years experience and of you know, great faith and love of the lord.
Speaker 2:And you know we, we. You know as well as you know you can as well as you can be proud of something when you're a Christian. We are quite proud of this. But the whole point of it is to equip and resource UK Christians to be thinking about this and praying into this. It's available for free online. If you want to receive a paper copy, you can sign up for it on our website and we'll send it to you again for free, because our passion is to make sure that the UK church really is hearing the voice of those who are persecuted and then engaging with those Christians, and we want to find as many creative ways of resourcing that and encouraging that, and so that's what we're all about, so that you know, by doing that together, we can then join together as a large body of Christ here in the UK to then bless those who are abroad. But no, we have a very, very, very talented team.
Speaker 1:Absolutely beautiful put together literature, information. Obviously it's current, it's happening, it's happened, you know, and it's so well presented. And we just want to thank the team for everybody involved in that, because it the stuff like that that sometimes it can slip by the goalpost, can't it? You forget all the people that are sitting, you know, in offices and and working remotely, and the printers and on all the effort that actually goes into that. There must be a massive sigh of release when literally release, you know of, of when it's gone to print, and you think, wow, that's that one done. We got a bit of a breather for a little while to get. But it's a continuum, isn't it, of information we're always looking, always fluid, new stories.
Speaker 2:We're always, you know, sort of going to our partners and going on international trips to try and find your contemporary stories I mean that that's the thing we know. It's really important that we don't have out of date stories, stories but to let people know this is happening right now to real Christians on the ground in 2024. These are their testimonies. And you know, how does it affect us?
Speaker 2:Well, hopefully it motivates us to action, to love and support them practically but, also hopefully motivates us to love and support Lord Jesus in our own walk with him. So it's a both-and we do want to make sure that we are practically and prayerfully and pastorally loving these brothers and sisters, but also that we are making sure that it motivates us to be more effective.
Speaker 1:Correct. So when you're talking about motivating us, motivating churches, different denominations, the prime goal of this magazine is for us in the west to read it and to keep up to date with everything that's going on, because we don't see this on sky, bbc, news, secular news channels. We don't see this, this information. So this is key for the christian in the west, the leaders, the churches, the ministries, to grab hold of these resources, to literally listen and read of eyewitness accounts, real, factual stories of the persecuted church, because we don't hear about it in the UK. And is the UK church do you know this off the top of your head? Is it engaging more in the world of persecuted church? Has it started to dip its toe in a little bit more? Are you seeing any increase?
Speaker 2:I mean I can only speak of our own experience at Release International, and that's certainly I mean since I've joined, there have been more churches engaging with this and I would hope and pray that it would continue to increase. That's also because we're trying to make sure that that happens. We're trying to play our part in being proactive there, not just praying that people will pay attention, but that we actually reach out to them, not just with the magazine but in all kinds of ways on social media and doing good old-fashioned networking and saying to people you do know this is happening and we can help resource you in knowing how to think about this and act upon this. But I've been genuinely encouraged since joining Release, but I would also say there's a long way to go.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of people who I think persecution is a difficult subject and we are so good at avoiding difficult subjects or at least generalising them in such a way that we can put them into a box that we can understand and we almost oversimplify it, and then we understand it now and I can put it on the and we almost oversimplify it.
Speaker 2:And then we sort of think, okay, I understand it now and I can put it on the shelf and I'm done with thinking about it. But actually it's a subject that does require continual engagement and it's a subject where you know if we are, you know, by the Lord's spirit, brave enough and faithful enough to continue to look at it. Actually it will bless us, it will prepare us for hardships in our own life, not necessarily persecution, but it will prepare us for hardships because we will see that there are Christians who forgive in unbelievably difficult circumstances, who are faithful in unbelievably difficult circumstances. And there is an element when you hear these stories you think, well, if they can do it, then so can I.
Speaker 2:By the power of spirit, I mean almost without excuse actually yes, that that's complete and it is the power.
Speaker 1:What we see across the table of this persecuted world of church is the power of god's uh presence, his love and his mercy on the individual. And what you just said forgiveness, how they forgive, the power of freedom in that word and word alone it's humbling, and anyone who has ever had to forgive I mean genuinely forgive we all know it's.
Speaker 2:You know it's a hard thing to do, it's a it's a costly thing to do, it's a sacrificial thing to do. Um, is there something which you, you have to do proactively? You never, just never. You know. I think you never just feel forgiveness, you know, unless you've been forgiving for a very, very, very long time. But you always have to continue to choose, each day, each morning no, father, help me to forgive this person. I choose to forgive this person and and and for these men and women to be forgiving. There's.
Speaker 2:We're going to hear some of those stories in a minute. The things they they're forgiving are not small things, they're big things. But you can, you know, reading these stories, you can tell there's a genuine love which can only come from the Lord Jesus Christ. Humanly speaking, it can't come from us we're so sinful. But it comes from him and he gives them that power and ability to do it, and it's beautiful. Comes from him and he gives them that power and ability to do it, and it's beautiful. I think there's another word for it it's just beautiful.
Speaker 1:It really is, isn't it? It's actually John 3, 16. You know, when you look at that, for God so loved the world that whosoever shall believe in him shall not perish but have everlasting life. It runs so beautifully with the scripture. You know forgiveness, and Jesus died on the cross. We know that famous line that Christ delivered when he was on the cross, those last few breaths Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.
Speaker 1:And that is so powerful, to hear these stories that we're going to enter in right now and you're going to lead us through some beautiful articles. And I have to call them beautiful because they are powerful and they are life-changing and they're transforming to me as a Christian, as a Christian, a believer in the West, and think, oh, my goodness, I need to learn to forgive more, I need to learn to be more relaxed, I need to be more hopeful. I learn so much from my brothers and sisters in the underground church, the persecuted church, whatever label we put on the tin. So forgiveness. And when Christ said that Father, forgive them, for they know no what they do, you can see Christ in these men and women and these children when you see their pictures on the and you know. You see, they shine, they're radiant. Let your light shine. So, johnny, you're going to take us on to the next stage of this journey that we're with together today. And what is that first article that you have there?
Speaker 2:So the first article we have is looking at India, and the question of our article is is this the end of religious tolerance in India? Now, all these articles have the theme of oppression, which I'll just quickly touch on on now. Oppression is a big term, it's a big umbrella term, it's essentially a catch-all term. Uh, at release international, we, we serve four types of persecuted christian. That's just how we kind of divvy it up. Um, so we can be effective in our ministry. Um, we serve the families of those who have been martyred, who have been left left behind, who have made the ultimate sacrifice. We serve those who are in prison and also their families who are on the outside of prison. We want to make sure they're not forgotten about, that they are provided for practically, prayerfully and spiritually. And also we serve those who are forced to flee for their faith. That might mean fleeing to a country that is not their own, or just being internally displaced, being forced out of your town, your community, your village because you love Jesus, and being forced somewhere else. And then oppression is our fourth area, which covers anything which isn't those really, but as we'll see as we go through these stories, oppression does touch on all three of these areas.
Speaker 2:But what can oppression look like? It can mean being beaten and it can mean being beaten and it can mean being threatened with death. It can mean having your income taken away. It can mean being forced to leave your home and being made homeless. It can mean any manner of evil with the aim to either shame you out of being a Christian or just to expel you from the community and to make you an ineffective Christian, or to silence you so that you don't ever mention it and you leave people alone, which, of course, as we know, we're not meant to do that. So let me just share some stories from India, I guess a bit of an overview of where India is at at the moment, before we kind of dive into the testimonies, which is what I'm really interested in. India is, as we know, it's a fast nation, you know, kind of in South Asia, kind of close give or take around.
Speaker 1:About a billion people are there now which is, you know what's that about?
Speaker 2:one in eight roughly.
Speaker 1:Something like that.
Speaker 2:You know people on Earth or in India. It's huge. It is predominantly a Hindu country, although there are some Sikh pockets here and there, but it also contains, you know, pockets of Christianity and Islam as well. It's currently run by a political party called the BJP, who you know I won't always talk about politics, but they are significant in this story of persecution. They are essentially a Hindu nationalist party. They are run by Prime Minister Modi and at the moment, india is undergoing probably the biggest general election in the history of democracy.
Speaker 2:It's going to take a month or two for the voting and the counting and the results to come, in, which will be an issue for prayer that we'll flag later but essentially, underneath the current regime, we have seen an increase in persecution on minority religions, mainly Christianity and Islam. Essentially, there is this feeling that's growing across India although there are hotbeds of it in certain parts, but it's growing throughout the whole country that to be Indian is really to be Hindu and to be Hindu is to be Indian and therefore, if you're not a Hindu, you are really a threat to the state and you actually are almost kind of betraying your country. And from that we see a lot of persecution and it's kind of worse because also we see in India right now these laws being passed in various states, these anti-conversion laws.
Speaker 1:Very dangerous isn't?
Speaker 2:it. They're very dangerous and they're very slippery. They're worded in such a way that you can get done for being kind of telling people about Jesus in practically any way. If you give somebody a Bible, you could be at risk of breaking anti-conversion law. Meeting somebody to pray with them, you could be at risk of breaking anti-conversion law. Meeting somebody to pray with them, you could be at risk for breaking anti-conversion law. They're really deliberately dangerous, deliberately slippery laws, yeah, designed to stop the spread of the gospel exactly now. Of course, it's okay if if you are um a hindu and you're trying to get someone who isn't a hindu to become a hindu, because that's not viewed as conversion, that's almost viewed as a homecoming um, so that doesn't count.
Speaker 2:But, if you're a Christian reaching out to a Hindu, then you are in trouble, and so that's a very broad, generic background to what we see in India.
Speaker 2:But what's interesting is that India, in times gone by, had a reputation for being tolerant and that over the past 20-, 20 so years has really eroded, and especially over the past 10 to 5 years, we've seen India become going from a place where there was trouble brewing to actually is now a very dangerous place to be a Christian, and so I just want to share a few stories, mostly, not exclusively, from pastors.
Speaker 2:The reason they're mostly but not exclusively from pastors is the reason they're mostly but not exclusively from pastors is because they are the primary target, because these are often men of God who have on their heart to pastor their local flock in their community, but also to reach out to those who aren't part of their flock. We know that Jesus had a heart for the lost. He came to die for us whilst we were still sinners and still far off, and these pastors really understand that and want to reach out, in spite of the risks it comes it comes with, so um, so there's one chap called pastor regendra, and just just people are aware most of the names from all the articles I'll be using are are essentially not real names. They are made up to protect those whose stories these are, because we don't want to draw undue attention to them.
Speaker 1:Thank God, yes. We want to be responsible partners, not put them at risk by showing them, not put them at risk by mentioning their names.
Speaker 2:But, praise God, they have agreed to share their stories with us. Oh man, and this is a guy who was walking home from having led his local church service and suddenly he finds himself surrounded by a gang of eight blokes attacking him with metal rods, swords and axes. So this is, you know, metal rods, bad enough, but blades which are inherently designed to cut bits off. It's scary. He was left for dead, essentially bleeding, in the road not too far from his house. Now, praise God, he was saved by someone who found him and took him to hospital where he required intensive treatment for 40 days well, over a month, 40 days for the attack that took place on him.
Speaker 1:Brutal, the the brutality, but this is nothing new. Is it to the ears of us that are very familiar with this? And it can be shocking, can't it to the western church that just has no clear understanding that this guy has just come out discipling at church, preaching whatever way we look at it, and suddenly his life has almost been taken by these fuelled terrorists. Because what other label can we put on them?
Speaker 2:Well, that's exactly what they are. They are there to kind of infoke terror so that you get in line or you leave, or you just shut up, you know, and you stop doing what you're doing. Now, this actually happened about 80 years ago. Why am I raising it? Because actually we know we met with Rajinja in the past few months on a trip there. All these stories are come from a recent trip that we took to India, where we met plenty of amazing men and women of God and we were able to see. You know what has been done for him. You know our partners were able to help him with his kind of recovery, his medical recovery so there's that practical end and also provide him with a motorbike, the idea being he can safely travel to spread the gospel.
Speaker 1:What an amazing story.
Speaker 2:So we have both a recovery and also a plan to look after him as he continues to spread the gospel. But the thing that really, you know, I'm amazed by here is and I will just actually I think I'll read directly from my magazine is that eight years on he's still ministering in the same village and sometimes he sees some of the men who attacked him and we have here that Virginia forgave them and so the police case against him was dropped. He says they leave him alone now, but he prays that one day they will come to faith and understand the forgiving love of Christ. So that's the thing I want to share with you. That's the mind-blowing thing we have.
Speaker 2:This horrible attack, which we must acknowledge is just evil, and hopefully it will open our eyes to our own privilege. It's good to share with you the work of our partners so you can see that we are a practical ministry, doing practical things to serve those who are on the ground. But actually the faith of Adringer shows in staying put, not running away, continue to minister and also to forgive those who attacked him so brutally and also be seeing them, sometimes on the street, and praying for them to come to know the Lord. This is typical of those who are serving the persecuted church and it's amazing. So I praise God for him and I hope please do join us in praying.
Speaker 1:What a story, Johnny.
Speaker 2:It's amazing.
Speaker 1:The story of forgiveness, the story of healing, the story of supply, the story of that. I'm praying for my perpetrators that one day they will come to faith. The power of forgiveness, this is not humanly possible. The only way, as we say time and time and time again, is through the power of God, the Holy Spirit. You know, as Christ was on the cross, again we have to reference Father. Forgive them, for they know not what they do. And what an encouraging story. It is encouraging, you can't use any other terminology. It encourages. And where does it encourage us? It encourages in the area of I've got to forgive.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and again I think you, again I think for those of us who have things to forgive, whether we've been betrayed, belittled or whatever it is we know it's not a small thing and we can only do it by the grace of God and hopefully, by looking at these men and women of God as they forgive, we can be inspired to forgive and to turn to the Lord and say Lord, help me, forgive this person. I choose to forgive you, this person. Please give me your spirit to do this. It is a supernatural thing, I think. I completely agree.
Speaker 2:We're so sinful, we're so vindictive, naturally so easy to be bitter. I think we all know in our heart of hearts that we all fall into this, don't we?
Speaker 1:Completely true.
Speaker 2:Let's not look at Rejinger and these other amazing people and think this is an easy thing. This is a continual choice to turn to the Lord and to ask him to strengthen them. And actually I just want to read another, very similar story about.
Speaker 2:Pastor Joshua and again, like Rejinger, he was beaten up very, very badly and again, in both cases it very badly and again, in both cases, it's a Hindu mob that were doing this. Pastor Joshua was actually I don't know who the pastor is, but he's Joshua anyway but Joshua was beaten up, was handing out Bibles to people on the street. So he's there standing up for Jesus, making sure that people get the chance to read the word of God in their own language so they can access him, and he was hospitalized for five days after this beating, which which our partners were able to pay for, you know. Again, something that's worth remembering is that when we live in this country, it's easy to forget that being in hospital actually is expensive when you're not in the uk that's correct.
Speaker 1:So with the nhs, you know, we are so blessed, so blessed, so you imagine being beaten up, left for dead on the roadside and then you've got to pay for it exactly the roadside, and then you've got to pay for it.
Speaker 2:Exactly exactly.
Speaker 1:You've got to pay for it or you will die.
Speaker 2:It's impoverished you in body and in wallet. It's no small thing but, praise God, our partners were there to pay for that. Now Joshua still has continual pain in his legs and his ears. And actually, going back to Pastor Virginia, he still has pain in his legs and his ears. And actually going back to Pastor Virginia, he still has pain in his legs eight years on. So there's a constant physical reminder of what has happened, which I think again adds to the power of forgiveness when you think about that, johnny.
Speaker 1:A reminder the weather changes, your bones are aching, we know what it's like but a continuation of a reminder that I have this pain because someone has afflicted me with this and I wasn't looking for it. I wasn't looking for a fight, I was literally just delivering the gospel of Jesus Christ. Wow, what a price. That really makes you think as a Christian in the West. What am I actually? What am I prepared to do for Jesus? Oh goodness, lord, give us strength.
Speaker 2:It's humbling, it really is. And again, it's always the response to persecution, though, which I find personally, for me, the most moving. So again, I was reading from a magazine here like Virginia, joshua still sees his attackers as he ministers in the same community. And then this line here he smiles at them but they don't respond. He smiles at them and we know, as we read those questions, that's not in a mocking way, that's not in a defiant I'm still here way. That's in a I want you to know Jesus way and I love you and I forgive you way, and that is not to avert eye contact, not to put your head down. Not to avert eye contact, not to put your head down, not to try and be unseen which is, I think, my natural instinct if I was thinking in his shoes but to look at them and smile at them because he wants them to know the love of Christ. That's just for me, that's so powerful.
Speaker 1:The love of Christ it is, isn't it? To be able to look at your enemy, eyeball to eyeball, and to be bold and to be strong and to smile, you know, and, uh, they must completely see the lord jesus christ shining. You know, let your light shine, even when you've been brutality, sorry, when you, when you've been brutally, uh, hit and whipped and kicked and beaten and and come out with swords and clubs and rods and everything goes on there and suddenly to recover, to pay for your recovery. Uh, thank god that someone was there. You know, partners were sitting, sitting on the wayside there be able to help him, but actually to walk by the people that done that to you in your village or your town or wherever you are, and actually continue to walk and feel safe and feel secure and actually to smile at the enemy. What a message is that?
Speaker 2:It really is, I think, think, mind-blowing. I guess it's just my, it's supernatural. It's supernatural, you know, you can't do that on your own, humanly speaking. Or if you do smell someone like that, you, you know, let's be honest tend to do it maybe slightly mocking where, like I'm still here, but to do it in a way that's absolutely loving can only come from the Lord Jesus Christ by the power of his spirit.
Speaker 2:Amazing. Now, I think one story that people might be vaguely familiar with from India that happened last year was when a lot of violence broke out in a region called the Manipura region. Now, this is quite complex, I'm not going to go into great depth. This is where sometimes persecution gets a bit murky. It's hard to work out what's going on and when and by who, but essentially there are two people groups, one of which is almost totally Christian and one of which is mostly Hindu, and this was essentially a series of ethnic escalations and violence that happened. Does that count as Christian persecution? Well, actually we think in this case it does.
Speaker 2:It won't always, sometimes, you know, ethnic violence is just ethnic violence, but in this case we think it is, because actually there were Christians also, who were in the predominantly Hindu group, who were attacked as well. In the outburst of violence in Manipur, churches were burnt down, businesses destroyed, from both ethnicities, which to us says that actually this is a predominantly or at least, even if it didn't start as a predominantly persecution thing, it evolved into it. The scary thing about this is that there's really been no accountability or very little accountability. There's a feeling, I think, in India that if you do attack Christians, you're probably going to get away with it, unless you do something that's really heinous and captures national and international media attention. There is no justice here most of the time.
Speaker 1:That's correct. There is no justice. You literally can walk away and almost do whatever you want, because, as long as you're beating the same drum as the government and what they say, you're fine, you're fine, you're fine.
Speaker 2:And you know, this is absolutely of concern to our partners in India. They are seeing escalations in violence, escalations in intimidation, escalations in threat violence, escalations in intimidation, escalations in threat. But in spite of this, there is, I think, a dogged determination to continue to serve the Lord Jesus. And I just want to read some words from a chap called I'm going to mispronounce even his pseudonym, I'm going to mispronounce Motadal Apologies to listeners who probably know how to pronounce that up and I've just butchered it but he's a pastor who serves in a village and, again, like Joshua, like our first chap, he was brutally attacked, this time, though not in the streets. He was attacked in his home, along with his wife. So people have come into his house, it's a home invasion and he's being attacked.
Speaker 2:Now there was some small degree of justice and, I think, incomplete justice. That makes a mockery of justice. Actually, here the attackers were arrested and then fined. Now that doesn't sound to me like something you should be fined for, I think, maybe imprisoned perhaps. But this is what he said to our partners when we visited him in the aftermath of this attack. He said even if I die, I will not stop serving the Lord and doing the ministry he's given me in this village. Now this strikes me for two reasons. Number one what faithfulness to persevere, to continue. But I think sometimes in the West we are guilty of this and maybe I'm projecting here, but I'm certainly guilty of this of looking for the limelight, of being attracted to big churches, big church leaders.
Speaker 1:Completely true, you know kind of urban centres. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And wanting to be part of this network or that network to get your name out there, whatever it is.
Speaker 1:The bigger the church, more Jesus is. Yeah, all the lights, the glitz, the glamour.
Speaker 2:Exactly, we are attracted to these human things and God does use people in those situations to bless his church. He absolutely does. But I think you know we shouldn't be chasing those things. It's up to God to put us there or not. And here's a man who's serving a village in India. You would have never have heard of him if not for this little testimony. There are many other men and women who are serving in other similar little villages in India at great risk, and their attitude is we're not going, we're staying because this village needs Jesus, this small community needs Jesus. We will not abandon them. We will not take the gospel away with us. They need it and that for me, I think, is really the heart of Christianity that there is no person too small, no place too insignificant, and that persecution should not affect that. And indeed it does not affect that. And I praise God for these men and women who are doing these amazing things.
Speaker 1:When we look at that line that you're reading out and that's on the article of page nine of the magazine, and my eyes are attracted to what he says, the first four words even if I die. Now I go back to the Old Testament and think of Meshach, Shamrach and Abednego and they said even if our God chooses not to rescue us, we will not bow the knee. When you look at that, what that first line of this pastor, this believer's heart, he says even if I die, I will not stop. Lord, help me in my situation.
Speaker 2:You know, I think sometimes we're guilty Goodness, get hold of you, johnny, it does and sometimes we're guilty of kind of viewing christians who are in poorer parts of the world a little bit of, uh, patronization it completely, sometimes patronizing, yeah, sometimes you think I don't really know.
Speaker 2:I don't really understand these guys know the gospel, sometimes they they even they know as much as us. They sometimes grasp it better because they have to live by it more, because actually you know, they've got to live by faith and they are being run out all day long.
Speaker 1:Look at us today. We've got technology all around us. We've got the creature comforts. We've got biscuits. You've got a cup. You've got tea. We've got cup, you've got tea. We've got everything around us within the church of the west the technology, the comfortable chairs, the air conditioning going on, you know, the tv screens with the worship coming up, and completely the opposite to what we got here. It always is the completely opposite.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, absolutely, and I think we have to kind of take a step and say well, what does the gospel give people, regardless of where you are? What does it give you? Well, first of all, it gives you a hope for your future, that you know you are a sinner, and once you realise that and the full implication of that, it's terrifying that there's a holy God that judges sin, but then that Christ has saved you from that a great gospel. You give him everything, don't you? You love him. But actually there's a second part of this which sometimes we might miss. The cross brings justice. There's justice from our God, either at the cross or elsewhere, and we don't want it to be elsewhere, we want it to be at the cross.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:And I think, regardless of what you suffer, knowing there's a God of justice who is for you and not against you means that even if we don't see justice for these things on this earth, we will see them at some point, and we pray it will be at the cross of christ. We pray it will be there and not elsewhere, because it's a terrible thing for it to be elsewhere we don't want it elsewhere we want everyone to come to the cross.
Speaker 1:You have this forgiveness oh, absolutely.
Speaker 2:So. You have this, this, this duality at play here, where you have these Christians in India and around the world who know there's a God of justice and the God of justice gives them justice at the cross, and they want those around to have that same justice.
Speaker 2:But it also means that when you are struggling with a lack of justice, you can say well, Lord, I might not see it here in my lifetime, but I know that it matters to you. It's not insignificant to you. You really care about this. You are more hurt by this than I am and I trust you to take care of this, and we know he will. Just wrapping up on India.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:I just want to sort of you know again what's the effect of our partners, but also what's the effect of those who are on the ground, who are being persecuted. Let me just talk about our partners quickly on the ground who are being persecuted. Let me just talk about our partners quickly. We give legal aids to pastors who are facing prosecution, which is an increasingly common thing. We've seen more pastors go to jail on the basis of those anti-conversion laws. We are trying to give them the resources, legal resources that they need and in some cases, some basis of legal training to try and navigate that, and also people to advocate for them. We are making sure that if people have been physically injured or still suffer mental trauma, that they get help for those things, so that actually there is a sense of healing there as well. But why do, again, people on the ground keep on serving Christ?
Speaker 2:I think we've covered a lot of reasons, but here's some very tangible things which you can read in the article and I'm just going to quote this sentence here. Amid these accounts of hardship, we also heard testimonies of people turning away from drunkenness, despair and domestic violence to follow Jesus, of poor children being educated and getting good jobs, of girls and women escaping temple prostitution, and of the sick getting health care or even miraculous healing. I mean, that's the gospel exploding in india, that's the gospel at work. We see, you know spiritual turnarounds, you know, you know, you know.
Speaker 2:so either women are being able to escape abusive relationships, or even men who were the abusers, turning around and giving their lives to Jesus and repenting of that. What stories. This is why these pastors are staying in their villages, because they want to be seeing this happen throughout the urban centres and the countryside of India.
Speaker 1:Thank God for the pastors, thank God for those that are really steeped in the work and they've got this such a serious calling. And then it questions and you open up the door of so much, don't you? With on my side of the table? They're really called. It's not their job, no, it's an actual calling. It's not like what we see in the West that we appoint pastors and leaders. We look at CVs. Do pastors and leaders? We look at cvs do they fit? What's their education? Where they come from? Are they well oiled? Are they well, uh, in the christian field, so to speak? Are they the celebrity world? Are they this, are they that? When actually you look at these pastors, they are just literally men that have been called by the gospel of jesus, real callings on their lives. And that shows us, doesn't it, that they can stay because they've got the power of God keeping them in the village.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you know these aren't just words. We're not going to talk about China too much today, but China and India, the church is growing and it's growing at an unprecedented rate.
Speaker 1:Isn't that lovely, powerful.
Speaker 2:It's encouraging for us because we are, you know, in the West, and by West I kind of really mean Western Europe and North America. The church is growing, I think, the slowest in these two regions than anywhere else in the world.
Speaker 1:I think we're actually seeing a decline. Decline no absolutely.
Speaker 2:And you know, in one sense this should be discouraging. I'm not saying we shouldn't be discouraged by this, but in another sense we should actually look globally and say what's happening to us is not the global picture. The global picture is that Christ is winning and that the church is growing. And I think you know right now we are at a point in time where our church size is declining and that's a bit depressing. But actually it's our call to be faithful in the midst of that, in the hope that one day, years from now, it will grow again. And I think it will one day grow again because we're seeing parts of the world that have either been unreached or have been very unchristian for a very, very long time. And whilst there's still active struggle in these regions I mean India's the prime example of that this is not an easy journey and yet people are still coming to Christ because the gospel is more powerful than the schemes of man and of the enemy.
Speaker 1:Johnny, it's so encouraging to read these stories and that's why we need these stories, and we're not talking about just bedtime stories, we're talking about real life eyewitness accounts of everything that we're talking about. I think it's sometimes for me I need to stop using the word story, because it's a real testimony of the grace and the mercy and the saving favour of the Holy Spirit, saving them, working with them, taking them beyond what we could bear as a human being. So when you look at that, it's really important, I believe, for every one of us within the Church of the UK you know Europe and North America, these places we're talking about is to really read these eyewitness accounts of brutality, because it strengthens us and says, hang on a minute, and this is taking over and that Actually, God is moving so powerfully across the world that we are not a tiny little nation in the UK that's dropping off the peg and everything else is rising. Actually, we belong to a kingdom that is so powerful, so powerful it's growing and, no, these governments cannot stop the work of God.
Speaker 2:Well, it's that great kind of hymn. You know, in Christ alone it says no power of hell, no scheme of man can ever pluck me from his hands.
Speaker 1:Impossible.
Speaker 2:And it's impossible for you know, for the gates of hell to prevail over the church, because Christ is more powerful than the enemy, and not only more powerful than the enemy to defeat him, but actually to use the schemes of the enemy. To not any more powerful than the enemy to defeat him, but actually to to use the schemes the enemy to bring about his purposes.
Speaker 1:That's right, completely humiliating what the enemy meant for harm. Yeah, god will turn for good. So this is really encouraging. As we look at the platform and we look at the atmosphere and we pick up what we pick up in the uk and we're hearing what we're hearing across political tables at the moment. What we've got to remember is is that this God, the God of Israel that we serve, if we was to study and to read and to take all this in what our brother is bringing and what these, these fantastic staff and volunteers and the partners are bringing to us, it strengthens us. The persecuted eyewitness accounts strengthen us as believers that go come on, let's believe that God is going to move in the UK. Let's believe that there's going to be a turnaround. And it doesn't actually matter who's in power. It doesn't matter who, what colour tie they wear, it doesn't matter what faith they are. What matters is I need to be a servant. If I serve correctly, there's change on the table.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. And I think a great example of that is if we move to Pakistan, where actually what we see in Pakistan is people who are converting from a Muslim faith, a Muslim background, but not only that, but often kind of positions of authority within the faith. So let's look at Shazad, for example. Shazad was an Islamic preacher. He was somebody who served kind of you know his community in that role and one day he had a Christian friend who lived abroad. He shared the gospel with him and initially he just rejects it. She says he's not interested. Again, she says not his real name. But as time passed, something ate away at him and he decides to actually maybe check out the Bible online. And it's in Luke's gospel that he is just transfixed by the words of Jesus, that he is just transfixed by the words of Jesus and he kind of can't. We can't underestimate the cultural shift for a man like Shazad.
Speaker 1:I'm just. It's making me smile. It's amazing, isn't it the power of this God that we serve? And just like he was an Islamic preacher, yeah, so he was completely anti. Completely the other way. So he was steeped in the religion, he was steeped in his beliefs. He was preaching, he was delivering, he was the four, nine yards.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, but then Absolutely. But then he reads Luke's gospel. He's transfixed by the words and the love of Jesus. I think the love is what really drew him in. But he's really confused.
Speaker 2:Now you know he's an Islamic preacher. He can't be looking at this stuff. This is contraband, essentially. But what's the truth? And it's at this time, actually, that the Lord and we see this happening a lot in Islamic countries actually, where the Lord, where the Bible, isn't as accessible, or where biblical teaching and explanation isn't as accessible, the Lord will speak to people in dreams. And that's what happened to Shehzad, where he had a dream where Jesus appears to him as he's standing beside this fast-flowing river. Another man in the dream comes along and encourages Shazad to then jump into the water, but Jesus takes out a hand and puts a hand on his shoulder and says Follow me. And as he walks with Jesus, he sees his nail-scarred hands. He has, and he then, in the dream, Jesus took Shesed to this stunningly beautiful building filled with people wearing white clothes and says to him you can now sit here, now that you are saved, and suddenly… Hang on a minute, johnny, this is beyond.
Speaker 2:No, I know it's amazing, isn't it this?
Speaker 1:is beyond. This is bigger than any Netflix thing out there. This is bigger than any production.
Speaker 2:It's stunning, isn't it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this is a real life. This is a powerful testimony. We're not talking about the testimonies we hear in the UK week in, week out. We're talking about a preacher that was literally preaching everything against Christianity.
Speaker 2:But then suddenly he has a dream.
Speaker 1:Johnny, think about it. No one's preached to him, no, no, he hasn't gone to college, he hasn't heard of, he doesn't know anything. But suddenly, while he's asleep, the Lord again.
Speaker 2:We don't get as many dreams in the UK, I think, in part because you know, in small part because we actually have so much access to the word of God and to good teaching. Naturally, that's how the Lord will often reach out to us. I'm not saying people don't get dreams in the UK, not saying that for one moment but actually in these places where you don't, we don't, they don't have this rich tapestry of resources. Actually, the Lord won't be thwarted. You know, he's not going to sort of sit on his hands. He will reach out to people as he will, when he will, and that's what he does. And Shahzad, it took him a while to find a church because you know you start with he's still a Muslim for a while. How?
Speaker 1:do you do this? How do you find a church when you're a familiar person in the village, the town or the city? Oh, there's Sherad, there's the preacher of Islam. No, exactly but then suddenly he's got to go into it's very similar to the story of Saul.
Speaker 2:when he's converted, is Saul welcomed?
Speaker 1:by the church immediately.
Speaker 2:He's not. He's feared. This is Saul. It's a trap. He's trying to come into our church to arrest us.
Speaker 1:And then Ananias God, it's a trap he's trying to come into our church to arrest us. And then ananias, god, have you heard? Do you really want me to pray for him? Do you know what he's been doing?
Speaker 2:no, exactly, and um, but. But you know, shazad essentially eventually found a pastor who kind of would, would, mentor him and, uh, this pastor would take two, one or two hours every day of his time to one-to-one mentor shazad over the phone, eventually introduced shazad to the woman that would become his wife, who's a good Christian lady, and they're now married. Now life is still hard for Shesad because he's had to leave everything behind. I mean, if you look at our magazine, on page 12, that's Shesad and Nur, his wife. There their faces are blurred out because actually it's incredibly dangerous for him to be a Christian. You know his family, were they ever to find out, would almost certainly, you know, try to do him harm or get others to do harm to him for them, for bringing shame upon the family, you know, potentially even killing him. So you know.
Speaker 1:I can't think of anything more dangerous, johnny, than to cross over from Islam as the human side, to cross over from Islam to Christianity, be surrounded by family friends, it's very dangerous it is. It makes me shiver.
Speaker 2:The heartbreaking thing is that there's a part of you that can almost understand just about you. Think about it a community getting angry, wanting to try and kill you. The heartbreaking thing is it's a very, very common story the family, your mother, your father, your brothers, your sisters wanting to kill you because you become a christian and that's true what you're saying, because it's common. This is very common.
Speaker 1:We hear this in the world the underground church, the persecuted church, the suffering church. We hear a lot, and the other day I read an article can't remember where it was, but this two brothers brought up in Islam. A Christian man came to one of the brothers and started to talk to him and shared the gospel. One of the brothers got saved and the brother said to his brother I'm going to kill you, I'm going to shoot you.
Speaker 2:I wish I could be shocked by that, but unfortunately in this line of ministry we see that all the time now. Now, what about shahad and anur, his wife now? Well, again, we mustn't turn these people into sort of superhumans. Life is really, really hard, they. They found it very difficult to make money and again being cut off from your family. You still love your family. You're still your mum and your dad.
Speaker 1:It doesn't stop, does it?
Speaker 2:It doesn't stop and this has made them anxious and depressed at times. You know the struggle and the grief. You know I think 1 Peter 1 talks about suffering grief in all kinds of trials for a little while, but the grief is very real and very tangible and the grief is there. Our partners in Pakistan has been able to kind of help them meet their financial needs and help them grow in their faith. And she says current ambition is that one day he will be able to study the bible at college and then become a full-time evangelist come on, jesus so full on 180, from from, from preaching islam to preaching christ, to reaching souls, and this is the power of the gospel.
Speaker 2:there are two more stories I want to share, uh, with you, um, uh, and there are two characters in these stories who, who kind of, are really important. Um, they're not the main character of the story, but without them these stories wouldn't happen. I want to share with you, um, a similar story you said about a brother, andrew. Andrew likewise was. He was a former cleric in a mosque in Pakistan Again former, and is now a Christian, praise God with his wife and his two adult daughters. I believe, they all believe.
Speaker 2:But when his daughter was 14, she was really seriously unwell and they went to many doctors and couldn't find anything to make a difference. And in his role as a religious cleric, he sort of would visit various places and he visited, basically, this brick factory, this brick kiln, to pray for the business with the owners. And at one of these factories he met a Christian who, upon hearing about his daughter's illness, offered to pray for her. And Andrew said well, no, you know, you're a Christian. And just to be clear what I mean by pray for her, this Christian man was offering to come in person, to pray physically over his daughter in person. It's not just like pray from afar, to physically come to this religious cleric's house and pray for him.
Speaker 2:And essentially the man said well, I'm going to keep on praying for her anyway, even if you don't invite me into your house. And so basically Andrew went oh fine, I'll invite you in and actually, as Andrew, fight you in um, and actually as andrew, as this man is then invited into andrew's house, he prays over this, this little girl, and as he, as he cries out to the lord, you know, he begins to cry and and tears roll down his, his cheek for love of this little girl. And Andrew was so amazed that this man, who he didn't know and to whom, quite frankly, he could do great harm, would be coming to his home and praying with such passion for his daughter, he actually joined in.
Speaker 2:he joined in the prayer and found himself by the power of the spirit, praying in a different language, because that's what the spirit does and light falls on the girl and she's healed and in that moment Andrew's heart is changed. And it's an amazing story about Andrew and Andrew. Again, life for him has been really, really, really hard, you know, because again he's a complete 180. He's faced all kinds of attempts of persecution. But I just want to just point to the man who is unnamed in the story, the man who is a lowly factory worker who, upon hearing about this little girl whose ill is filled with compassion and offers to pray. And if that man hadn't have done that, andrew and his family wouldn't be saved right now and Andrew wouldn't be reaching souls himself. And it just shows you just the Obedience.
Speaker 2:Obedience, but also the importance. This is a man who I will never I will never probably learn his name. I'll never meet him, I've no idea whether he's currently alive or dead, or if he's in good health or bad health, but the world is full of people like this, who are completely anonymous and yet, at great personal risk, serve Jesus on the front line, and that, for me, is absolutely awe-inspiring, because without these ordinary people, extraordinary stories do not happen.
Speaker 1:That's correct and they are real ambassadors of the gospel of Jesus Christ. They go unnoticed, they're not even thinking about the notoriety. There's no Facebook, there's no Twitter accounts, there's no TikTok, there's no video in, there's nothing going on. It's just the person walking in to such well. It's walking in primarily to the enemy's territory and being bold and praying over these people and being completely faithful to the gospel of Jesus Christ, and it just shows you how God does protect you and takes you to the wire.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I mean, it's really's really awe-inspiring stuff. And again, you know, when people found out Andrew was a Christian, he was in great danger and actually that danger persists to this day. When our group visited him, it had to be under the cover of darkness. Really, yeah, you couldn't do anything. You had to wait for darkness to descend to visit him. And essentially, when it was found out that he was a Christian, there was a mob that was rallied to attack him and presumably to either beat him or to kill him. But, praise God, there were some local Christians in, I think, a nearby community that heard that this was happening, sent a car to rescue him and his family. And again, just these kind of unknown heroes of the faith who, again, someone's got to drive that car, someone's got to choose to get in the car, drive to a known mob to rescue fellow believers who are fairly new. And again, that's no small thing. So again, just the love of the body of Christ at work here, I hope, inspires us.
Speaker 1:That is so strong, isn't it, johnny? The love, the love for one another, and realising you're putting your life on the line, like you said. The one that's driving the car, the message you know, going there, travelling with him, all the stuff that it could brew up, but that's the love of God.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and I hope that's the thing that's really emerging in this is this theme of love, both love of the Lord to those who are lost and then are saved and found, the love of the community of brothers and sisters towards each other, and also the love of those who have Jesus to those who do not have Jesus. That's why you stay put, that's why you risk great risk, death sometimes, and sometimes it's not possible. You stay put, that's why you risk death sometimes and sometimes it's not possible to stay put. And we never, ever, judge Christians who are forced to flee. We do not do that. And there are times where Scripture does say to us, actually it's right to flee, but we do praise God for those who do stay, at great risk to reach the lost.
Speaker 2:And a final word on Pakistan.
Speaker 2:You know, you know there are, we have, partners who are called sort of strength to stand or run strength to stand groups, and these are groups sort of aimed at giving Christians income, essentially and particularly, although not exclusively, you know, christian women who often are essentially told they have a lower place in society, that they don't matter as much, and strength of stand gives these women sort of skills to to have their own businesses to provide income for their family and a real dignity.
Speaker 2:And again it's just a sense that you know the lord gives dignity to all people and a real dignity. And again, it's just a sense that you know the Lord gives dignity to all people and they do amazing work and they're sort of I think currently about 350 sort of strength to stand groups. These are all groups of like local men and women so 350 currently in Pakistan equipping them with the ability to become financially independent whilst continue to be faithful to God in quite dangerous circumstances. So we praise God for our partners who do that and we pray that that will grow. You know most of these groups are formed of women. They're not exclusively women, some are also for men as well, but we do praise God for our partners who do that amazing work.
Speaker 1:Johnny, it's so, so good. What have you got to wrap us up with? Time has just flown by it's flown.
Speaker 2:There's so much I could look at. I want to finish with some stories from Eritrea. Eritrea is a country that's sort of growing in my heart because it's part of my role to keep half an eye on it, essentially, and to sort of find out what's going on there. There's a story right at the back of our magazine, on page 19, and um it's, it's really hit me for a whole number of reasons. Um, I think essentially because it's a story of great loss, a story where, uh, change is forced upon people against their will. But also, I mean, as I read the words of those affected, I'm kind of sort of struck by how actually these are people who are really ordinary in the best way possible. You know, these are people who I can almost sort of feel like I could have a conversation with. You know, they're not far, far off relationally, they're maybe far off geographically, but I I can relate to them and I can also relate to how god's been at work in their life in the midst of hardship. So this is a story about, about sophie.
Speaker 2:Eritrea is a country in east africa. Um, you know, if you were to sort of it borders um water and if you're going to go across the water, you'd kind of hit, kind of the the arab peninsula. So it's that it's on the horn, the kind of the pointy bit on the side, and Sophie's a mother of four. She's married to Isaac Again, not their real names. Isaac originally was from Ethiopia and from the Tigray region, which is really significant because Eritrea and Ethiopia have, shall we say, to put it kindly, a rocky history and the Tigray people aren't always viewed with a lot of love in Eritrea.
Speaker 2:Now, sophie was arrested, presumably in part because she was a Christian for sure. But then, upon when the Eritrean authorities found out Isaac was from the Tigray region, the whole family's given 24 hours to leave Eritrea. So suddenly you know you're in your country, you're arrested. That's quite scary, but now you've got to leave. You're being forced to leave, your whole world's being turned upside down and you've got four children to provide for as well. So you're leaving your job, your home, your family, your community, everything. They're dropped off at the border with Sudan and then they begin to make their way to Ethiopia, and then they're even dropped off by the border of Ethiopia. They've been forced to cross one country to reach another country.
Speaker 1:What a dangerous journey. Imagine that Suddenly someone coming to your door. It's cruel. And literally you have got an hour to leave. Oh, what do you mean? No, leave the UK, you are going. You have no job. We're freezing your bank accounts. You've got no money, you are to leave. And when you look where they got dropped off, you think Lord, this is a powerful testimony of the grace of God.
Speaker 2:And you know, but things unfortunately get worse before they eventually do get better.
Speaker 2:They do unfortunately get worse before they eventually do get better. They do, you know, because the family is essentially, you know, one person's from one country, one's from another. You know, her husband, isaac, is able to go to his hometown when they enter Ethiopia and make a way for him and his children to join him, but because his wife and his children are Eritrean, they are forced to go to refugee camp and stay there before they can eventually join ISIS. So again, you know, you've been forced from your home, you've been forced to go to another country, abandon your friends, your income, and now you're being, you know, forcibly separated as well, which is, I think, just a terrifying thing. They were eventually reunited and able to open up a butcher's shop, which was initially successful, praise God. But the moment the customers found out that these were evangelical Christians, they loved Jesus, wanted to make Jesus known they basically stopped coming. So, and then your business dries up. So you think, all this hardship, you think you found a footing.
Speaker 2:Yes, and it's just taken away from you because you love Jesus, because you love jesus, because you love jesus, yeah, and you know, and, and sophie herself, um, you know, I think, must have come to faith in eritrea in such a way that, uh, her family now rejects her, you know so.
Speaker 2:So, you know so. So she's in another country, wants to reach out to her country, that her family left back home in her home country and they just refuse to communicate with her, which is just so terribly, terribly sad. Um, you know, where they live is a strong orthodox area and people just don't trust them because they're evangelicals and also because she's eritrean as well, and so there's this kind of you're, you're outcast, you and you, you're made to feel like the outcast, and all of this, you know, is really traumatic. It's trauma upon trauma and you know, the whole family have felt very lonely and isolated and Sophie has been honest with us by saying that at the time she's felt suicidal at times. This has not been an easy journey, but it says this that she has never thought of rejecting her faith, even when ethiopian authorities arrested isaac on suspicion of being a spy.
Speaker 2:So, so, so, you know you've got everything going on isaac's come home to his home country, having been forced out of eritrea, being kicked out for because he came from ethiopia, of a particular part of ethiopia, and now the ethiopian authorities are looking at Isaac going well, why did you leave? Are you really a spy? Are you spying for them? So he's arrested. It's a family for whom so much has been going on, so much trauma, and, praise God, our partners released Eritrea, who operate in Eritrea and in Ethiopia amongst Eritrean refugees. They've been able to give Isaac the ability to open up a cycle repair shop and that's being able to provide some income for the family. But this is the line which I think really drew me and warmed me to the article. I'm just going to read the last paragraph. The couple attend church together where they are accepted. They described it as our hiding place. Church isn't perfect, but we ignore the little things. We can also laugh at church.
Speaker 2:Wow, that does that you know they found a place in church where they know it's not perfect, they know it's not right, but they are able, by the grace of God, to have some acceptance and laugh when I guess you know you're meant to laugh but also laugh at maybe some of the silly human things that do happen in churches, and that's what really just drew me this completely no, these are just normal people they're just normal people normal, but they're not extraordinary.
Speaker 1:It's like when you go to uh the book of james. It says elijah, a man just like us.
Speaker 2:It's important to understand we're human beings like each other no, and again there's a struggle and having felt suicidal, being depressed and lonely and anxious, these are, I think I'd feel those things, having gone through that these aren't superhuman, but they are faithful in the midst of this persecution, and they found a home in the church eventually, and, thanks to our partners, they've been able to actually have some income, support their family when their income has been robbed of them several times. And so I would just urge anyone listening to this please do check out our website, releaseinternationalorg. Find these bits of news, find these stories and actually pray.
Speaker 2:Is the Lord speaking to you to play some small part in supporting these Christians, whether it's through prayer? I think we should all do it through prayer as a bare minimum, but maybe to make some kind of gift. But that's between you and the Lord. I'm not going to say any more on that, but please do pray. Lord, help me to pray for these people. And, lord, how can I play my small part in supporting these people who are not just far off, but they are my brothers?
Speaker 1:and sisters. Amen, johnny, we thank you so much. You know, time has literally flown by and what a great article you brought to the table by the grace of God, and we pray, as Johnny has said, for our brothers and sisters and you know, wherever you are scattered within the UK and in the westernized world of what we call church. I would encourage you to get really involved in the persecuted church and really read these great eyewitness accounts because it will strengthen you, it will sharpen you and go on to Release International right now. Go on to releaseinternationalorg.
Speaker 1:Everything that Johnny has brought to the podcasting table is right before our very eyes. I've been following it word for word and it is a great resource. So, father bless, bless those that bring this resource to our table. Lord, let it increase, bring the money, but, lord, also, we thank you for the faithfulness of your servants in these persecuted nations and towns and villages. We love you. Lord, bless us. We pray Amen. God bless you, johnny. We'll catch you again very, very soon and thank you to everybody around the world, wherever you are today, may the hand of the Lord be so strong on your side, on your shoulder, and never give up. God is with everyone. God bless, we'll see you soon. Take care, bye-bye.
