Reverend Ben Cooper's Podcast
Reverend Ben Coopers podcast, offers an inviting space for listeners to explore Christianity and spiritual growth with wisdom, humor, and a deep commitment to biblical truth. Through Rev. Ben's engaging conversations with guests, the podcast not only explores the timeless wisdom of the Bible but also tackles the pressing issues of life, faith, and hope in a way that is accessible, thought-provoking, and enriching. Whether you’re seeking spiritual nourishment, answers to life’s big questions, or simply a place to reflect on your faith, the Rev Ben podcast is a valuable resource on your journey.
In each episode, Rev. Ben guides listeners through profound theological reflections, personal stories, and practical insights drawn from the Bible and the broader Christian tradition.
Reverend Ben Cooper's Podcast
Finding Light in Darkness: Ben Cooper's Story (#692 - Elim)
Have you ever faced the haunting shadows of your past and wondered how to heal? Reverend Ben Cooper courageously shares his profound journey through the labyrinth of trauma, faith, and healing. As a pastor who endured years of hidden abuse, Ben opens up about the emotional battles, including guilt, anger, and isolation, that come with confronting such painful experiences. His story is a testament to the resilience of the human spirit and the strength found in faith and community support.
This episode holds a mirror to the relentless nature of trauma, and Reverend Ben bravely reveals how he navigated the psychological impacts that linger long after the events have passed. From the complexities of forgiveness, especially conducting the funeral of one of his abusers, to the societal stigmas that often keep survivors silent, Ben's narrative is both raw and enlightening. Through his experiences, he emphasizes the necessity—and difficulty—of breaking the silence to pave a path toward healing, drawing strength from prayer, scripture, and divine grace.
Join us in recognizing the power of community and the vital role it plays in overcoming life's trials. Reverend Ben reflects on how his sanctuary, the church, became a place of both turmoil and resilience. Through his story, we uncover warning signs of abuse and the importance of vigilance, encouraging listeners to trust their instincts and find support. Experience the profound sense of empowerment that comes from speaking out and seeking solace in faith as we tackle the stigma surrounding child abuse, offering hope and guidance to those on their journey toward healing.
https://www.pastorbencooper.co.uk/
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Speaker 2:Hello and welcome to Navigating the Chapters of Challenge Season 2. Thank you for listening in again and thank you for joining us again. To those who are joining us for the first time, you're welcome. And to those who've been listening to us through Season 1, thank you for coming back. We're going to start this season with Reverend Ben Cooper. Reverend Ben Cooper has been really what's the word I'm going to use now has been very helpful with this podcast. He's the one that's really helped us to get to where we are today, by the grace of God. So it's just pertinent that we have him as the first guest again on season two. So I'm just going to ask Reverend Ben Cooper to introduce himself briefly and then we'll go straight into the topic. For today, Hi everyone.
Speaker 3:Thank you, telly. Yes, obviously, reverend Ben Cooper and I've been the minister of this church for gosh a long time now a number of years and as we're in this room, this is absolutely a critical room here and we're really blessed in the ministry of this church and everything that's going on and we thank God for his grace and I think I've been here roughly around about 18 years in this church, so it's good. We're a frontline church, everything's happening. You know so much stuff going on and we're really, really blessed to be here and to minister in this place and the Lord is really blessing the ministry with feeding people, with clothing people, lots of things that are happening here. So we are really, really blessed here and I love it. I love the ministry and everything that we're involved in.
Speaker 2:It's good stuff okay, you didn't tell us the name of the church oh okay, I suppose it might have been Elam church one day so yeah, been here a long.
Speaker 3:Elam Church Swanley. Elam Church Swanley. So, yeah, been here a long time. I think the church has been here around about 45 years, something like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, 45 years. I didn't know it was that long yeah it's been about.
Speaker 3:Yeah, definitely 45 years. I'm pretty sure of it.
Speaker 2:Wow, thank God, okay, okay. So today's topic is a bit sensitive, so I'm just going to put that out there. So if you're feeling a bit uncomfortable with it, please just walk away from this one and you can come back on the next podcast if that's how you feel. But I believe that the Holy Spirit is going to take control and it will be a blessing to people out there. So today we're talking about abuse will be a blessing to people out there. So today we're talking about abuse, we're talking about sexual abuse, and Reverend Ben is going to tell us his story, his experience of this, and I'm just going to hand it over to Reverend Ben and, yeah, we'll take it from there.
Speaker 3:Thank you, tilly. Yeah, it's quite a story, to be honest with you. So obviously, just take it from the beginning and I do apologize if anything gets a little bit sensitive, because obviously it really is in certain parts of it, but it's quite a deep and it's very, very personal obviously, and I've only been speaking about it the last year, about the last year, so it's crucial. So I've actually pushed this away. For how long now I've pushed this away for, oh dear, 30, 38 years. I've kept this and I didn't tell anyone for the last. About the last year, certain things happened so the story came out, um, purely because incidents that happened in this church, things that was going on outside the work that I was involved in helping people to get through from certain areas that I can't really mention on this recording because it's quite sensitive in certain places that we work freeing people up from certain abusive situations, and I just literally said something to the police officer and they, they said to me and a few things and uh, it got opened up and uh, it's yeah, so I'm not my normal self when I speak about it because, like you, normally I'm shouting and hollering and jumping around, but when it comes down to uh, speaking about myself and this situation, it it's still so raw, even though it's like 38 years done.
Speaker 3:So I was a paper boy. So I was a paper boy in the local shop just around the corner, not too far from us, where we are, literally over the field of the church, where the food bank is. The Trussell Trust food bank is the place where it all took place with myself. So I was 12 years old, my dad got me a job in the paper shop and it was good. At first. Everything was okay, things were fine, no problems, everything was going along well, and so, from the age of 12, I was roughly in there and then things started to turn. And it's very, very interesting how pedophiles work. They're very, very clever. They're very, very manipulative in the way that they do things and looking back at it now, it's easy to say why did I pick any red flags up? Why wasn't there nothing around me to actually give me the incentive to run, so to speak? So yeah, 12 years old, I went into there. My dad got me a job.
Speaker 3:I remember I had a push bike. I had a blue. It's very, very significant. This is a blue push bike. It was a BMX. When they first came out it was a blue BMX, yellow wheels, sky wheels. It had, and, uh, it was a very significant part of my journey. So, yeah, very tough story this is actually. So the more I think about it, the more it's, uh, getting a little bit more brutal to talk about as time goes by. I'm under, the police are involved at this moment as we speak. Uh, they have protected me in certain ways because of certain things that are still going on with with certain things. So it's quite a difficult situation to speak about because obviously I can't name no one. I can't bring it to that sort of point. So just a brief outline. So, 12 years old, blue bike, very, very significant. Dad got me the job, I'm in the paper shop.
Speaker 3:Probably six, seven, eight months go by and and then suddenly you find yourself in this situation. You're thinking, hang hang on a minute, how did this ever happen? But from day one you could say it like this they had your card marked, they knew exactly what they was doing, they knew how and it was quite a large pedophile ring. So all the atrocities that you could ever imagine went on. So, six, eight months in and it started. It literally started up until I was about 14 or 15 years old. So a very dark experience, uh, very painful, uncertain. Couldn't believe it was happening when you go through that sort of things. So it's's yeah, telly, it's a tough conversation, but just fire away, ask whatever. It seems very odd at this moment to be sitting on the other side of the mic you know, telling your own story.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I understand that and I know that this must be really, really hard. You said something earlier on about not talking about it for so long. Why do you think you didn't talk about it for so long? Why do you think you didn't talk about it for so long?
Speaker 3:I literally buried it. If I could use that. I buried it. But what?
Speaker 3:What really brought it up was a few things I didn't want, didn't want to admit it, I didn't want to accept that that could have happened to me. So when you're a young lad and you've been raped uncountable amount of times, it's not, it's something that it messes. It can mess your head up in so well, it does mess your head up. So when you experience what you experience and you think that these, is this really true, is this really happening? And then as you start to progress in life and you, you get to like 18, 19, 20 and you move on and everything happens and I thought I dealt with it, but you never really deal with it. It's, it's always. It's always there. It was so strong. It's starting to get a lot easier as I speak about it.
Speaker 3:I found very difficult to talk to the police about it at first, that that was, that was embarrassing, that was scary, that was frightening. Uh, and obviously it's just. You have to say to yourself was that really me? Did that? Did that really happen? Was that really happening to me? Why me lord? What's going on? Like lord, now I'm in the position I'm in for 25 years as a pastor, reverend linda, for a church, but we've all got these stories somewhere along the line where why lord, why did this, this happen to me?
Speaker 3:So I just had to bury it, telly, I just had to put it away. It was, it was horrific. I just couldn't tell my mom, I couldn't tell my dad, I couldn't, I couldn't tell my nan, my nan sorry, my nan and my granddad, family around me, very close family. So all that stuff was going on. And, uh, another area where it blew up is through through lockdown. I had to, um, I was working, obviously, in the ministry, everything was locked down and I had a phone call can I, um do a funeral? Said yeah, do a funeral, no problem, of course, and I was doing loads and loads and loads of uncountable funerals. So it it wasn't unusual just to do a funeral, but when they dropped the name through, it was one of the pedophiles.
Speaker 2:That must have been a shock.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it was a shock. So when you're doing their funeral, and what happened after that? It was what we call a pauper's funeral as well, because obviously no family didn't have no family anyway. And it was a pau what we call a pulper's funeral as well, cause obviously no family didn't have no family anyway. And uh, it was a pulper's funeral. It was just me, the undertakers, and, uh, the funeral directors were just there. But from that point on, what happened to me? I started to have nightmares. So when I'd done, when I'd done the funeral, what happened? Very, very quick, straight after that, I would say, I used to wake up completely dripping in sweat, fearful, crying, all that sort of stuff, and what I was having, the nightmare, was that he punched the lid off the coffin and he pulled me into the coffin and then the lid slammed. So it's like, it's just like.
Speaker 2:It's bringing it all back again.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but in a real dark way, as in I'm thinking this yeah, I can't actually express what it feels like to relive certain things at that sort of level and you're just trying to push it away, but it absorbs your life, even though when you live life and you do what you do and and you've got family, you've got friends, you've got jobs happening in you, you can never push it away you can never, ever push it away, even in ministry, preaching and teaching and doing all what I was doing.
Speaker 3:Every time, like every time I'd get in the pulpit, it'd be so powerfully in the back of my mind, my subconscious. It was always there and I'd be preaching and doing what I was doing in the church and it's like the devil stirring it back up. If people knew what had happened to you, they wouldn't. You know all this crazy stuff. The devil certainly is a liar, that's for sure. And it's been tough. I tell you what it's been tough. I tell you what it's been absolutely tough and it took me to the wire more times than I can actually count. So it started off when I was 12 and then a few things that really brought it to light over the last bit of time, but it's really mainly the last year. So I got through. I've done the funeral, done that, didn't mention anything to no one, just just got down because got me head down, got on with it and just pushed through. But it's it's. Yeah, that was brutal, that was a brutal thing to do. That was like that was a torturous thing to actually do that.
Speaker 3:So when you talk about forgiveness, forgiveness, wow I was gonna come to that.
Speaker 2:I was gonna say when you were doing his funeral. You know, normally at funerals they say nice things about people. Even though people are not necessarily nice, people tend to say nice things about people and say good things about people. So how did you get through that? What did you say? How could you have gotten through that? Because I don't think I could have done it.
Speaker 3:Well, thankfully, because it was a pulpit funeral, it was literally just very robotic, okay, so there was no family, there was no one there.
Speaker 3:It was literally just the logistics of in put the casket on the catafelt at the creme, do what I've got to do. There was no prayed over it. You know, read the scripture, done the Lord's prayer, done the committal prayer. There was no, no words, as in coming from a human being. So that was a the only thing I can say that that was a blessing that it was in a lockdown experience, okay, where everything was so quick and fast. It was just the legalities that go with it, really yeah, so I didn't have to worry about um doing any of that whatsoever, so I thank god for that so it was a blessing to me that I didn't have to um go into any area of detail.
Speaker 4:Okay, so forgiveness lord, help me, help me, help me, lord, help me, I preach on it, I teach on it.
Speaker 3:I'm telling everyone under the sun to forgive.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it must be hard to forgive this.
Speaker 3:Can I, Will I? The Lord knows my heart, I don't know. Some days I have days where I pray and I say thank you, Lord. I forgive these perpetrators, I forgive these abusers, these pedophiles. Lord, I thank you for their lives.
Speaker 2:Thank you for their lives, yeah.
Speaker 3:You have to go beyond. You have to go beyond.
Speaker 2:How do you thank God for their lives, because their lives had a negative impact on your life.
Speaker 3:The Bible says bless your enemies. Pray for those that persecute you. Yeah.
Speaker 3:So I've got to push it beyond what I can do, because if I allowed it and if I like I did, I think it would have eaten me like a cancer, to be honest with you. So I've got to go beyond. I've got to go beyond. So the prayer is Lord, for all those that came against me in the most vile ways. I thank you for their life, I thank you for them because you created them. Help me to understand, and the only way you'll ever understand is through revelational knowledge, god revealing and God doing a miracle. So people that have been raped in their life, people that have been abused psychologically, financially, spiritually, emotionally, arranged marriages, all the abuse out there it's such an individual journey, isn't it? It's such a psychological abuse. People that get caught in cultural marriages you know abuse.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of abuse out there.
Speaker 3:I don't actually know what the answer is to be fair.
Speaker 2:It's very tough yeah, can I take you back, and if it's uncomfortable?
Speaker 3:for you to ask, please just let me know.
Speaker 2:You did say you were raped multiple times and I'm just wondering after it happened the first time, did you go back there again, and time did you go back there again and did you have to go back there again? Forgive me for asking.
Speaker 3:I'm just a bit curious here. It's very interesting the question you're asking. Because, yes, simply because they make it almost the normal thing to do.
Speaker 3:Okay almost the normal thing to do Okay, the way that they groom you, the way that they talk to you, the way that they entice you in without enticing you in consciously, and the line that literally comes out of it is well, if you don't come back, if you don't carry on and we're going to tell people, people are going to think you're dirty, you're just a boy and no one's going to take any notice of you. We're adults and all that sort of stuff. And you find that you're just trapped, you're like a rabbit in the headlights and the fear is so strong it almost numbs. Fear numbs it. It's crazy because I think to myself why did I even allow it once? How did I ever get trapped? How can a human being ever get trapped in a circle, in a situation? Why couldn't I break? Why couldn't I break it? Why didn't I fight? Why didn't I kick back?
Speaker 3:But it's very clever that they're so manipulative, they are so controlling, without you realizing they're controlling and without their manipulative. And they make me feel like I was the one doing the wrong. It's all my fault. It's my fault, it's my fault. And if everybody knows about this your mom, your dad, your nan, your granddad, all the people in the church they're going to never talk to you, they're never going to your dad's going to beat you. It's just so clever the way, how they grab you by your mind and you can get into a position where you think to yourself I have no choice. I don't have a choice because, obviously, being at such a young age, you can't think and you don't know what to do, because you're looking up to the adults, the adults in your life, you're trusting.
Speaker 2:Abusing that trust.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you're trusting these people that are around you and then suddenly, before you know it, the event happens. You feel absolutely vile, beyond vile. You can't. You can't even you. It puts you in a bubble of, of a world that doesn't really exist. It puts you into a position that it didn't happen. It didn't happen. That was a mad dream. That was just a moment of of craziness. No, it wasn't me. It wasn't me. I don't know how others deal with it, but I really don't know what to say. Telly, I don't know because, yes, looking back now, you would think that anyone that will go for anything like that would literally go and and tell straight away but they, they entice you in as in, they, as in, they get you feeling so comfortable at first, as in, they've got my back, they're like family, they're very, very clever, you know. And then suddenly, there's almost no way out. There's almost no way out. There's no way out. It's an odd, strange situation that only people that have gone through it.
Speaker 2:Will understand. Will understand. You touched on something that I have been reading about, and the blame People who go through this seem to constantly blame themselves all the time how do you get out of that state of blaming yourself and seeing it for what it is?
Speaker 3:it's not your fault I can't get out of it. Telly, it's there, it's me, it's uh. Again, it can only be, we can only be god, because it's drummed in you, it's put over you, that it's all your fault. And then suddenly you become this oh dear, I started it when he didn't start it, it's my fault, when it wasn't actually my fault. But your mind is so powerful and as a young age, you get this rhythm of this like oh okay, yeah, it's me, I'm bad, I'm a horrible person, nobody loves me. It's just this strange mindset. So it's just trapped in your mind, it's just trapped in one part of your brain. Again, prayer hope. God please.
Speaker 3:God, please, god, please, god, please, god, please, god, please, please, lord, remove it. I don't know, I don't know what the answer is. I don't, I don't, I don't. This is not going against any counselors or any anyone out there that is in these professional, proficient positions, but the only way I see freedom is by literally God doing a miracle. I don't know how the mind can be freed from any type of abuse. I think you learn to live with it, navigate it. But it's very real, you can almost relive it. Trigger points, certain things you might see, certain sounds, certain men. Even even now, I'm pretty confident I can spot someone that's not right. I'm pretty confident because there's traits, there's ways, conversations, the way they look at you, and I've questioned many, many people in the circle of my life coming all the way through, thinking there's something more to you. You seem to pick up this sense of where you can pick up the true character.
Speaker 2:So yeah, it's a tough one yeah, so did you go through any um, depression, anxiety, any, because I I read that people tend to go through depression, anxiety, eating disorders and stuff like that as a result of this kind of abuse. Did any of those things happen to you?
Speaker 3:um, I, I would say around about four years ago, I had a real bad moment. I don't know how I dealt with it as a child, because it's too far back to actually, but I certainly lost my joy. I know that as a young teenager I certainly lost and things happened and it made me just very, very angry at certain points. So I become a very angry person, turn me in a few strange ways, made me feel very alone. But you learn to live with it. You push it down, you push it to the side. But about, yeah, I'd say about four years ago, I, I hit a wall, I literally hit a wall, but I wasn't conscious of it as in.
Speaker 3:But now I look back, I think, do you know what? I think it was brewing. I think there was so many things just going on in life and certain things and things happening that it just literally certain trigger points. Um, just had a moment where, like I wanted to leave the earth. It I don't know how to describe it Like you're preaching, you're teaching, you're praying, you've got prayer meetings happening everywhere, you're believing in miracles, you're calling on the power of the Holy Spirit, but then you have a moment where you go.
Speaker 3:I don't actually want to be here. I'm either going to disappear off the face of the earth, almost disappear, or just what's the point of carrying on the mind you know? So you've got a battle, you've got a continuation of a battle of your mind trying to work out how am I going to deal with it. Do I live with it? Do I say something about it? So yeah, when I look back now I know that that was a trigger point to me to really getting depressed. But you just had to try and ride it through because of the stigma, the stigma and, uh, if anyone ever knew, if anyone ever found out what would happen. And I remember the officer, like a drawer dropped when I just blurted it out and she said to be honest, ben, she said you're the second person in five years that has actually mentioned anything at this sort of level. Men just seem to drown themselves in drink, get onto drugs and do all types of manner of things trying to push everything away. So obviously there's just uncountable people out there.
Speaker 3:That is going through stuff going through abuse, whether that's financial, whether that's sexual, whether that's marital, whatever it is, whatever it is that are just pushing it down. We understand and we really get the stats on women being raped and abused and all that and thank God there's so much out there for women. Thank God that women are really really well looked after. But for men, if you was to do a Google search, there's not really a much out there for women. Thank god that women are really really well looked after.
Speaker 2:But for men, if you was to do a google search there's not really a lot out there.
Speaker 3:There's not really a lot out there and uh, I happened to, uh someone said to me why don't you uh watch this, watch that, that netflix thing, that baby reindeer thing? I don't know if you've been familiar with that I haven't what.
Speaker 2:I've heard about it.
Speaker 3:Oh my goodness gracious what a turn that story had on it, and that was an eye-opener. That was an eye-opener. There were certain things that I kept going back to. I kept watching. I kept watching because what he was explaining, because the actor that was acting that part was actually the one that went through all that, so the actor was the actor so it's very interesting to watch.
Speaker 3:So it answered a lot of questions for me, but, um, it also threw me in a spin as well. It threw me back in the spin. So tell you, I don't know how you navigate through this. The only way I can tell anybody is, literally you just gotta pray yeah and you gotta trust and keep praying and so often you pray and you trust and heaven goes quiet.
Speaker 3:God, please, please, take the thought help me, lord. Will you help me? Jesus Father, will you, will you remove it? But then you come back to the scripture, where that great apostle said three times I pleaded with the Lord, will you take this from me? But then God said my grace is sufficient for you.
Speaker 3:So grace is what gets us through. The power of God's word is love, you know, and I just pray for anyone that's going through stuff that's out there, you know, and all that that you will find the power of God's grace, because God's grace will bring us through. God's grace will get us to the cross. It always gets us to the cross and through god, grace will get us to the cross. It always gets us to the cross and we can always find christ through the living word. So there is always a way forward, but the power of the mind yeah so why did I, why did I stay?
Speaker 3:because of the power of manipulation and control, coercive control, and when you've got you just don't realize how strong these, these and they're not strong as in physicality, they're the most odd bods as well that you could actually ever work. Work this stuff out. They're not physically strong, but they're. So it's evil. So it's not just it's not a natural thing to do, it's driven by lucifer. So all pedophiles are driven by lucifer, all child abuses and many areas of that it is. It is evil and it is dark and it is driven by satanic activity. It really is. It's very, very satanic in certain things and, uh, the more you realize, the more that helps you to understand that they are human beings, but they are literally. Satan has entered into them it is not a normal thing to do.
Speaker 3:It is far off the scale of normal things to do. It is beyond. It is the darkest things of hell. It is bleakak, it is black and sometimes, when I think about it, you can't even word it. But what gives me comfort is when Christ was at the Passover table and he was about to break bread before he went to the cross in the Garden of Gethsemane, and the scripture says that Satan entered into Judas Iscariot. That has given me quite a bit of comfort to understand that that lucifer uses the vehicle of human beings to get the most vilest of work done. So the only way I can say to anybody out there is you've got to ransack the scripture that, yeah, you might be under counseling you, but it's got to be the word of god. It can only be the peace, it can only be the peace, it can only be the love, it can only be favor, it can only be the grace of god and the power of the holy spirit yeah, why why didn't I leave telly, I don't know.
Speaker 3:Why didn't I? I alert the authorities, I don't know. Why did I allow it? I don't know. But the story, the story, just it grows, it grows, it grows. So just obviously, what goes on? Goes on in them, paedophile rings, and it was in the sweet shop in the flat above as well. And what made it worse was the church that I'm in here is obviously was birthed and planted and pioneered by my nan. My nan had a vision of this church. My nan had the vision of this church. It was my nan's vision. My granddad yes, he was an alien minister, but the actual seed was given to my nan. Such a gracious, such a powerful, un, unassuming, spirit-filled lady I remember her.
Speaker 3:She had. She had the vision, and the vision was that she see a church coming on the back of a lorry, coming around st mary's road, coming into cherry avenue and being dropped off here. And this church, if you really knew and see the journey and where we are, it is a miracle beyond miracle Miracles how this church has got to be where it is. There's no other way when you understand what we are sitting in and what's gone on. So this isn't by chance. So the reason I'm mentioning this and obviously, god bless my granddad, but my granddad was a yearly minister so how this all ties up is basically like this. So what would happen is the situation would happen. I would jump on the blue bike, I would literally cycle, which is just a stone's throw. You can actually see it, telly, if you was to look out that window. You see the back of the shop, you see the flat, exactly.
Speaker 3:So see it, telly, if you was to look out that window you see the back of the shop, you see the flat, exactly right.
Speaker 3:So I'm almost tortured every time, every time. And I live just there as well, so I'm right on the doorstep of it, so I can't actually flee and run from it. And, um, so where did I get to? So, yeah, I'd come up here on the bike, I'd throw the bike out the front, I'd run in the church thank god that the church was here and I would come in here and I, just my nan would shout out what you're doing on, nan, it's all right, I'm just just coming, I'm just looking at the cross. A minute, you know god, I'll tell you what it's wicked, it's awful, and, uh, I thank god for this church because, um, it's been my saving grace to make it, make it even crazier this story. So I'd come flying up here on my bike, flying the church too, scared, like, just like, so scared.
Speaker 3:The feeling of fear, you, you, I can't tell the listeners, I can't tell, I can't express it, I can't express it enough. The power of fear. When fear grabs hold of you, when fear gets hold of you, when fear is running through your veins, when fear, adrenaline, it makes you do the odd, the most craziest things. It will, it, will it, just it, just all my it. I don't know, I don't know how to word it now. I'm not a person that never struggles for language and for wording and explaining because of where I come from and what I do and the calling. But trying to explain this it's virtually impossible because of the emotion and the fear and the scared feeling as a 12-and-a-half 13-year-old boy the fear of these aggressors. But they're not aggressive because to the outside world they're smiling, so they're the most obscured character.
Speaker 3:So you'd fly up here on your push bike, I'd throw the bike out the front, run in here, try and find a cross, try and grab your breath. My nan would be shouting you all right out there. Yeah, I'm fine, nan. Yeah, breath. My nana be shouting hello, you're right out there. Yeah, I'm fine now. Yeah, don't worry, all is okay I'm just just just wandering through. I've seen a little while.
Speaker 3:So the church is very significant. The church has been my healer, but also so this happens, this event happens, all this is going on, but then this is how crazy this is. What happened was one of the gentlemen meets a lady. He knows that I'm in this church. He starts coming to church. So suddenly, the safe space that is here.
Speaker 2:It's no longer safe.
Speaker 3:It's no longer safe. Oh good God. So it becomes there's no place to go. No place to go. So then, to make it even worse, my granddad, as the minister, actually marries him in his church.
Speaker 2:Oh, my God.
Speaker 3:He's baptized in his church. Oh my God, he's baptised in his church. He's telling everyone in his church how he's a Christian and he's a believer. And in the scripture I often think about this when Christ locked eyes across the courtyard With Peter Three times you'll disown me. There's certain gazes that people will look at you and I often think to myself that man would look into my eyes, into this church, and you could see dark, satanic. So there are certain gazes and I think people that have gone through certain things in their lives will understand what that's like to have someone look at you. And Christ was looking at the apostle. The disciple was looking at Christ, you know, denouncing Christ and all that sort of stuff. And he got married in here, he got baptised in here, he would come to church in here Don't forget, I'm still a young lad, but then Because he hadn't changed in any way.
Speaker 3:He hadn't changed, he hadn't changed, he hadn't changed. But then he's here every Sunday. He's here every Sunday, he's in this church praising the lord. So I can't escape it. I can't tell anybody. Now it's got worse because he's a christian. Am I a christian? Does jesus?
Speaker 1:love me.
Speaker 3:Jesus loved me. I'm the dark one, I'm the sinner. So suddenly, as a young lad watching a paedophile get baptised, get married, and then, the irony of it, I'm the one that buries him. But there's others involved in it and the police at this moment are investigating things that I've told them and I've had many interviews over the last year and I've got a lovely police officer that's looking after me and, yeah, this church that we're in, no one really knows, no one really knows, no one really knows. So then suddenly I get in the pulpit as a young minister and I've got to preach forgiveness and love, I've got to preach the goodness and the grace of God, teaching prayer meeting after prayer meeting, service after service. It's a strange journey, very strange journey. But then the story continues to grow. Someone else comes in linked to that and they try a few things. So, right under the Lord's house, right in the Lord's house, they try something else in the house, in the church.
Speaker 3:He tried something with me. So this is when I kicked out. And this guy is alive, this is the only one that's alive at this moment and by God's grace. From what I can gather and I can't go into too much of it he's around about 80, 85. But then the question people say to me is, oh, it'd be great to get him locked up. But then I've actually said to people I don't know if I want him locked up, I don't know if I can take that responsibility, which is so weird, so strange.
Speaker 2:You'd expect that you would want some payback now.
Speaker 3:So could I? Would I be able to see this gentleman bang to rights at this old age? And then I think what if I was responsible for a heart attack? So it's just this odd, strange journey.
Speaker 2:Still the same hold.
Speaker 3:Still the same hold, still the same hold. The only way the hold can be broken is by the power of God. And God has broken it. And God is moving and there is change. And God is moving and there is change. So suddenly this guy comes in and I've got to be careful, because this is I've got to be careful how I explain this. But basically he tried something and it was the first time I actually lashed out. I literally punched him and that put that to bed a little bit. So you've got it happening everywhere, telly. So I'm now you know, I will mention it because I've mentioned it, it's nothing new. The shop that is there now is the Trussell Trust Fruit Bank is in there. The flat still is above it. I know the people that actually live up there. I'm in and out. I know the people that actually live up there. I'm in and out.
Speaker 3:I was one of the people that was very instrumental well, the one actually to set the food bank up there. So when it was down in Swanley many years ago, a property came up and they said to me will you help us, pastor Ben? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where are you going to go? Oh, around there. And I thought you're joking me. You are literally joking me. Then they asked me to be a trustee.
Speaker 3:I went on as a trustee and that but I'm not kidding you that shop not because it's a trustee. It's nothing to do with the food bank, please. Whoever captures this is nothing to do with any of the organization. But there is a spiritual darkness that is still there after all these years. So what happened was I moved them up. I literally physically moved them up and, uh, my previous life as a bricklayer, 27 years or more ago obviously all my friends are bricklayers and tradesmen and all that sort of stuff. So I got them involved and, between us, we converted it. So I had to go in to the sweet shop. I had to go into this place, telly, I can't explain it.
Speaker 3:go in there and you could feel it. I could feel the darkness, I could feel the blackness, the bleakness. I could still hear the cries. I could still hear the.
Speaker 2:Take a minute, we need a minute.
Speaker 3:I could hear. I could hear it all. I can't tell no one. Can't tell no one. So I'm in there working away, doing what I'm doing. Get them all in there, ask to be a trustee? Yeah, of course I will. So even in there up to the last few years ago, because I'd come off the trustee ship, I just had to get out I could still hear, even having the meetings in there, going in there picking all the food up, going to different places for them, helping them out, doing this, still hear the screams and the cries and relive the journey, relive the journey after all them years. So even now you know where all these abusers do. What they do.
Speaker 3:It's very satanic, it's very caught in witchcraft, it's caught in black magic, white magic. It is divination, it is sacrifice, it is occultish, it is so dark, it is so dark, it is evil. It is from the gates of hell and I honestly believe that whoever has been through any atrocity like that, when you get close to that place that it happened, you feel the spiritual atmosphere. It is tangible. You can remember the smells, you can remember the screams. You can see the smells. You can remember the screams, you can see the faces. I can almost remember where the tears would drop from my face. And I'm living right. It's right on my doorstep. It's right on my doorstep.
Speaker 2:Why didn't you move away from here? Why didn't you move out of Swanley? You could have moved out.
Speaker 3:God's called me to Swanley Tally. Okay, this is my Jerusalem and I'm not going to be run out of town.
Speaker 2:I mean not. I know what I mean by that.
Speaker 3:No, I could go to Australia, set a church up, do whatever I was doing, but it's still with me, because wherever I go on this earth, wherever I go, it is there.
Speaker 3:So the best thing I can do is face it is, face goliath every day, every moment, and not allow, allow him, the spiritual entities, the dark forces, to take me out. I would rather face it every day head on than run, because that's what the devil wants. He wants he wants you to run, to run scared to live a lie, and there are uncountable people out there that have had horrific things done to them and not said anything to anyone. So if there's anyone out there that has gone through all this sort of stuff, talk. Don't be frightened to talk. You bring it to the table, don't be frightened to talk.
Speaker 3:You bring it to the table Because as many of us that can talk about it man, woman, boy, girl, whoever we are, we can't let the darkness win. So if I was to run, I'd be doing exactly what the devil wanted. If I was to migrate, I would take that to the grave. But I'm not taking it to the grave, I'm taking it to the cross and it's not going to beat me, it's not going to take me out, it's not going to wear me down. Amen. So it's going to be that scripture.
Speaker 3:All things work together for good for those who love God, all things are possible to those who believe. So all that went on and that's just a glimmer, just a glimmer of stuff. It's so powerful, the darkness is so powerful, but it's not more powerful than the light of God, the light of the Holy God that we serve, the power of the holy spirit. It's not any more powerful than anything like that. There is power in the name of jesus. So for anyone who's gone through, going through, I would encourage you to stand on a rooftop and to shout it out, because what the devil wants, he wants us to hold it in secret.
Speaker 2:So if I had, if I had, left the uk, the devil would have won, but goliath isn't going to win no and I think, um, what you said about stigma is exactly what it is that fear of stigma, the they make you feel like. Once it's out there, people are going to stigmatize you, and I think that's what we need to fight against now. That's what the world needs to fight against.
Speaker 2:Talk about this thing make sure because the more you talk about it, the less it becomes, something that is stigmatized, you know. And then I think maybe slowly, slowly, slowly, people are brave to talk about what they've gone through. I don't know, I just feel like it's the stigma that makes it worse.
Speaker 3:It is the stigma.
Speaker 2:That fear of being labelled as, like you said, the bad one, yeah.
Speaker 3:It's stigma, it's so strong it can rule you. I'm the bad one, it's my fault, and actually telling people and actually mentioning it because it throws you in such a spin. Many times you can question your sexuality. Many times you can question what's wrong with me. Many times you can say to yourself it's me, it's my fault, I had the power to stop that. I could have stopped that. Maybe I had to do that, maybe, oh, I tell you the dark faults you're wrestling, so the stigma, it all goes together and it is dark, it is evil, because the devil uses stigma. The devil, you. The devil is so clever. The devil is so clever how he will manipulate and shape and try to do things and try to tell you and do all this sort of stuff. It's the stigma that goes with it. But through the power of prayer, through the power of hope and through the power of justification and the power of god, you know it can.
Speaker 3:It can be broken and it will be broken you know, whoever you are out there, it really really important that we understand that there is freedom. Yeah. John 8, 32,. You will know the truth when you start speaking. The stigma will go, the fear will go. It feels like you're opening up a can of worms.
Speaker 3:But I would urge anyone, don't carry it. You've got to find someone that you can trust. You can find people and just speak about it. But I'm not frightened about speaking about it, no more. I'm not worried what the world says around me. I've come to that position that this is critical. I need to tell the story because by telling the story we can see and we can get justice. In whatever way you look at that, you can set the captives free. You can alert people. Your experiences, whoever you are out there across the world, your experience through that can set someone free to let someone know. Do you know what? I've experienced it. I know what you're feeling. I know what it feels like.
Speaker 3:You know, and since I've been talking about it, a couple of people have come to me and like said uh, really appreciate you saying that because it happened to me and I know there's different levels and different layers of it and different threads that go with it. But abuse is abuse. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. So you talk and by all of us talking and coming together and believing and trusting, we're survivors. You're a survivor. You've gone through Psalm 23,. You know, even though I go through the valley of the shadow of death. I will fear no evil, for you are with me. It's like just this conversation is exhausting. Yeah.
Speaker 3:I can imagine it's literally exhausting, and you've got to be careful not to get angry. Yeah.
Speaker 3:You've got to be careful, not wanting to find the people and literally make them pay. Emotions are so strong, but faith is stronger than emotions, yeah. So if anyone is out there that is going through it right now, stand up. Stand up and get to a safe space. We know there's lots of. We know things have changed over the last number of years. You know there are places where you can go that are safe. Yeah. So lots to think about, lots to think about, lots to understand.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for being very vulnerable. I know this has been hard and I'm'm really grateful that you're very welcome.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you've been able to open up like this. Um, before we finally go, I just wanted to ask one question because I just think it's just been on my heart to ask it sure, what are they? Are there any warning signs for people out there that is there anything that people could say, oh, this is a warning sign back off, because I I want this to be like a. I want people to go away from here saying, okay, they heard the story, but there's things they've learned as well in terms of if they see this kind of thing, they know to flee. You know just, is there anything that people could be aware of or things they could see? Okay, your grandma didn't know what was going on with you, but somebody could have a child living with them that's probably going through something like that and there might be some signs that they could see that would trigger or make them realise that something's going on. Just wondering, is there anything you could?
Speaker 3:Yeah, definitely, I would always check the babysitters out. Okay, very, very important okay I would always look at the people. The adults is obviously around. The children are they over friendly? Okay, are they too good to be true?
Speaker 2:Okay, in what way?
Speaker 3:Sweets, putting kids on their laps, loads of cuddles. Okay. Saying certain things. In certain ways, you're special. Oh you're so lovely. There's certain things you just don't say to children. Okay.
Speaker 3:The way you hug children, the way you look at children. You know I'm pretty confident, I can. I can clock someone a long way off now and I've had a few suspicions of things and you've just got to have you. You've got to say god, open my eyes as a parent, or even someone, a young person, that might be listening to this. What are the trigger points? If someone is over friendly with you and they are promising you things and they're saying things like it's just between me and you, it's all right it's okay, it's our secret, it's fine, don't worry, this is normal, don't worry.
Speaker 3:Social networks you know that the media, the social media, is such the devil's ground for grooming To be reeled in. To be reeled in with gifts. If anyone is trying to buy a young person gifts and showering them with trainers and promising them things there's lots of flags, lots of areas, careful you have it in your home. Just because they're your family, don't mean to say anything.
Speaker 3:To be honest with you, um, and I think it's so easy to be blind to it yeah so easy to push it aside and not actually see the warning signs that are right before your very eyes. This person is over familiar. This person makes a beeline for this child all the time. This person is always buying them gifts. Check the phone. Is there any text coming from this person? Just the most obvious, but they're not obvious things you know, they're not obvious why is this person buying them gifts?
Speaker 3:a friend of the family, you know? Is the child reacting differently when the person comes into the room? Are they a bit more scared? Do they? Do they want to get out of the room? Are they fearful of what this person could say? Lots of little things, lots of little things.
Speaker 2:Yeah thank you. Okay, so we like to end this podcast on a note. Thank you, you're welcome. Okay, so we'd like to end this podcast on a note of hope. So any last words you'd like to share?
Speaker 3:Yeah, sure, there is always hope. There is always hope, there is always a way forward. And you don't give up and you don't allow the perpetrators, you don't allow the abusers, or whatever abuse it may be, you do not allow them anymore to get inside your head, your heart, your mind, your spirit, your soul. You find a church, you find a cross, you find someone that you can talk to and just remember that you, you can recover, you can heal, you can be set freed. All things are possible. Don't don't allow these, these moments of dark, bleak, evil situations to to put you on drugs, to put you on drink, to to run you out of town. You know, stand strong, grab your breath, try whatever you've got to try to get free. But there is only one place. There is only one place that I guarantee you that you will be healed. And I thank God for the counselors, I thank God for the doctors, I thank God for the systems. But there is only one place and it's called the cross. There's only one place and there's only one person. His name is Jesus, he's the God of Israel, it's the Holy Spirit. They are your counselors, they are your freedom, they are your savior, they are the way, the truth and the life, and you get yourself to a church. You find yourself across. Maybe you're listening to this as a non-believer or whatever. Trust me, it will bring hope to you, whether in faith or out of faith.
Speaker 3:Get to the cross and look at the cross. Not that we're worshipping the cross, I'm not putting any emphasis on the cross, but what it symbolises. Or grab yourself a Bible. Grab yourself a Bible, get into Psalms, read Psalmsalm 91, psalm 40, psalm 23. Just get in there and just say, father, will you take these feelings away from me? Lord, I feel dirty, I feel grubby, I feel guilty, I feel scared, I feel frightened, I feel vulnerable. Lord, I don't know what to do. Just say God, help me, and I guarantee my life. I guarantee you you will start to find that there's hope and there is a way forward, and his name is Jesus, and everything that you've been through, everything you're going through, is nailed at the cross. And never give up, just never, ever give up. The scripture says in two corinthians and I think around about chapter 14, you'll have to check that off the top of my head. My mind's a bit wobbly at the minute.
Speaker 2:it says um, never lose heart, never lose heart yeah, never lose heart, stand strong, hold on to jesus. Amen. Thank you so so much for being vulnerable, for for, yeah, thank you so much, I don't know how to thank you, but you don't need to tell me and I just pray that this has been a blessing to people out there and that, um, yeah, you'll find some release just from listening to this.
Speaker 2:Thank you, and yes, so we've come to the end of this episode. It's been a difficult one, but we thank God for the grace and hopefully we'll have you in the next episode with us. Thank you so much for listening to Navigating the Chapters of Challenge. Take care, and God bless.
